T1 bass body

Some of you may remember a couple of years back I bought a T1A bass and the finish was shocking. Did it up with a lot of fiddly repairs.

Like all these things the repairs arent obvious but I can see them straight away so when a T1 bass body came up on ebay for not too much money I bought it thinking I would clean that up and maybe use it instead.

When it arrived found its one of those with the ash wings laminated so the grain is all wrong, should have looked at the pics more closely. Not only that the knobs had clearly taken a fair wack at some stage so the thin bit around the cavity containing the electronics is cracked (not sure you can see these in the pic).




Its sat here for a while and then inspired by [url=http://forum.westoneguitars.net/t2458p40-and-so-it-begins ]Corsair's[/url] and Westbone's veneer escapades thought I would do the same ie some sort of stained maple type veneer meeting in the middle, burst finish at the edges to cover the join.
Then I thought some more and decided I wanted to keep the Walnut/maple laminate in the middle of the body on show, why make your first veneer job simple when it can be hard eh? So the question was how to take off about 0.7mm evenly without disturbing the central laminate? A mate of mine has a well equipped garage and we thought either his bench circular saw or his router might do the trick. If it went wrong could always go back to the first plan. This would require making some quite difficult jigs. Then thought we have a small workshop in work so use the vertical miller...

Heres a couple of pics of the first pass.



The ear shot isnt me but a very helpful colleague.
Of course the surface of these is supposed to be flat but isnt. So we levelled it all out and did it again. Heres a shot of the lip edging up to the walnut laminate:-



There are a lot of things I hope you guys will help me with (ta Damian already). First one is what to glue the veneer with? My automatic choice would be PVA but have been looking at heat melt sheets too, stuff that is layered between the base and veneer then using an iron to melt the adhesive. I saw John used cascamite but his veneer looked flat, I want to go for summat a bit more challenging. Next is colour, got the pale maple and dark walnut in the middle
So in short questions for now are glue and level of dark/lightness for the veneer surrounding the central laminate? Will post some pic of veneers.

And was thinking about reshaping the area around the horns for better dusty fret access. Something like this.

We have another Sarcaster in the making. Good on ya Grogg. If the body is surplus then just go go for it!!

Hoax

Havent stopped but not made much progress on this one, have been researching stuff.
Ive been looking at some veneers, this ones funky:-


But this is where I think Im going, Olive Ash.

Also been looking at stains.
The pic below shows neat stain on ash, top to bottom black, indian red and mahogany.

Left to right is neat stain, neat stain sanded. On the right there is grain filler under the stain, sanded and neat. I think the grain filler doesnt help.

Im thinking watered down brown(mahogany) on the surface to act as a grain popper, black on the body edges running into a burst of the red. Probably leave the central maple/walnut laminate as is.

grogg wrote:...this is where I think Im going, Olive Ash.

Black and mahogany would work, but they've been done. Now, indian red...neat

Not so sure about altering the shape though.

Also been looking at glues and am probably going to use Pearl glue (made from bits of boiled up animal apparently), was recomended by Fiddes, fortunately for me they are based here.

The attraction is you can adjust the fit of the veneer after glueing by heating with an iron. I just tried it on this, glued the veneer, let it set, steam ironed it, took it off and put it back on. Seems to work.

Barry wrote:
Not so sure about altering the shape though.

Barry, I didnt think youd like that, have decided against anyway. So evils not necessary.

Glad to hear it! Best not to mess too much with a good thing, eh?
The glue sounds like good ol' hide glue to me. No?

Barry wrote:The glue sounds like good ol' hide glue to me. No?

Smells like matured cow poo so yeh I guess so.

Is anyone interested in this stuff, Im having problems with staining and would welcome input from those more in the know?

Anyway more experiments:-

In this shot Ive stained the veneer with mahogany on the left and an old trusty antique pine stain to the right. As you look up the piece its been sanded down then at the top left the antique pine has been applied to the mahogany and top right vice versa. Then swiped across the top with white spirit to see what it might loook like under a finish. Im favouring the top left, what do you think?

Also been trying maple with stains cos Barry said it wouldnt take much. Heres a birds eye. First shot stained then sanded.

The other side of the same piece, sanded then stained and sanded again.

Barrys right, doesnt pick up the features you want, just looks messy.

I quite like the stained maple, but it looks more like burr walnut, like the dashboard on a Mk2 Jaguar. It might actually work!!


Hoax

Did you give up on the Indian Red grogg? The sample you favour is good, but somewhat ordinary. I'd love to see a bit o' fire in the ol' Thunder!

Yeah, the bird's eye maple is tricky eh. I think you "might" have better luck by wiping it off soon after applying?? In other words try to accent the knots more if possible by not letting it sit around too long. The sample looks indistinct and the beauty is lost because of a lack of contrast methinks.

I think its too pale for burr walnut but I could be wrong. Lots of therse pieces are off cuts from a massive job lot of veneers I bought (18Kg).

I like the red, my Son likes it and Barry does too. My Mrs doesnt but even she doesnt have that kind of voting power.

More experiments then..

Ok some more messing about.

Indian red from bottom to top:-
1- sanded, the dark line is the woods natural colour
2- on its own
3- antigue pine stain on top with some sanding on the right
4- Nothing, just some leak stains
To the left of 3 is red on top of sanded mahogany, want to go with one of these.

Wow... great job so far ... love the work with the vertical miller...Wish I had access to something like that....

Looking forward to more updates....

Just caught on to this post - awesome stuff!. I really think you should do the "Funky" veneer though - I think it wouls look amazing.

And I agree with Barry - you should never alter the body shape.... unless you need to add some tuners to the body

Oh yeah - looked again, and I would definately go with the funky burled look - it is much more impressive than the Ash (looks wise) in my opinion. The stain would bring that out awesome.

Too late for the funky.

Awww - I really liked the other veneer, but it still looks like you have a great project going there. Good luck - i'll be watching this one.

Nice.....

Are you going for a burst... Are you going to add a seal coat before dying....

Frenchy wrote:Nice.....

Are you going for a burst... Are you going to add a seal coat before dying....

Have to do a burst to hide the edges of the veneer. Planning to do it with water based stains.

Im new to this, not going to add a seal coat, didnt know that was an option. I guess this applies if using coloured lacquers etc. but am using water stains, I was surprised how little grain lift there is.

Still mucking about with colours, the piece in the middle was supposed to be the same as the middle part of the one on the left but came out much darker.


The one on the right has had the same treatment and is an offcut of the veneer on the rear of the guitar.

Want to preserve the central walnut maple banding on the guitar body. Tried edging the stain with masking tape but it doesnt work, just leaches through. See here on the bottom left-

Any suggestions? I might be ok because of the walnut but..

Top left is me trying burst, the others are my messing with the funky (Myrtle burr) veneer.

grogg wrote:Want to preserve the central walnut maple banding on the guitar body. Tried edging the stain with masking tape but it doesnt work, just leaches through. See here on the bottom left...Any suggestions? I might be ok because of the walnut but...

Do I understand you correctly that you are trying to block out only the walnut?? That's a tough one alright, pretty damn narrow. Tape will only wick the moisture as you've discovered.

I think you'll have to try and reverse the process and isolate the walnut from the wings then seal it with a clear finish, preferably something with more viscosity than the stain to minimize the inevitable 'bleeding'. The pain in the arse is then to clean up the ragged edge. But if may sharpen off OK if the stuff is stuck to the surface?? A very thin piece of stainless steel straight edge used might help (like an eraser shield for example).

Seal then stain....

Barry wrote: Do I understand you correctly that you are trying to block out only the walnut??

No the whole central band, if I did stainf the maple would do the walnut the same as I dont think it will show much.

Barry wrote:I think you'll have to try and reverse the process and isolate the walnut from the wings then seal it with a clear finish, preferably something with more viscosity than the stain to minimize the inevitable 'bleeding'. The pain in the arse is then to clean up the ragged edge. But if may sharpen off OK if the stuff is stuck to the surface?? A very thin piece of stainless steel straight edge used might help (like an eraser shield for example).

Had thought about that but am thinking sellotape to mask have seen veneer tapes but dont know what they are. Am hoping that any bleed into the walnut wont show too much anyway.

Frenchy wrote:Seal then stain....

Can you elaborate? Seal with what, a coat of lacquer? Am rubbing down between stains to lift some of the grain colours.

If you are staining waterbase, you should apply a watersealer prior to staining. on the top and bottom staining is not a problem but when you get to the end grain wich are the sides of the guitar, the sides will suck up twice as much stain compared to the tops... Making all the side twice as dark as the rest of the guitar.

A sealer coat will seal the wood grain giving you more control on an even stain and control overlapping....

I highly recommend you seal....

These days and age, you should always cover....

Thanks for that Frenchy, I understand the end grain but thats going to be dark anyway so am not worried, yet.
Plan is to stain the top and back, bare wood, see what that looks like at the edges and move on from there.

Started cutting and sanding yesterday, thought "Im going to do this by hand for precision", bloody well not now. Just need the Mrs off nights and some daylight time to get some noisy stuff going.

Next weekend might not be good tho as going to the rugby, glug glug, hope all you North Americans have been following the 6 nations, the greatest rugby tournament without a shadow of doubt. I hope youve noticed Wales are the only team to have won all their games and with the remaining two at home..

Good advice from Pierre. I'd forgotten about that.
Dumb really, as I used a sealer on my Vantage Avenger refinish. The sealer doesn't seal, in the sense that it forms a barrier. Rather it works to even out the stain absorption so I'm not sure if it can be used to completely block absorption on the centre block. Perhaps if several coats are used?? At least it would make tidying up a lot easier.

Read a bit on the net and as I understand it sealer is the same as lacquer but thinned down a fair bit. I have cans of both so will try in a minute.

Perhaps I wont, already in the doghouse with the boss who has just finished nights and Ive been mucking about with this instead of doing the stuff I was supposed to - like getting the phone extensions and answering machine working after I changed suppliers. The smell of solvents wafting through the house may be the straw that breaks the camels back.

Bugger Grogg!! (not literally)

Are you married to a nurse as well? They don't half expect the housework to be done when they get up and find you messing with guitars!

Hoax

Humm...... After lots of reflection on the matter.... :idea:

Go do the phone....

Did the phone (or a quick fix), fixed the wall light that was hanging off from recent decorations/building works and nipped out the dark back garden to try the sealant idea. At a guess 1:5 lacquer to thinner.


Maybe too much thinner in this mix or more layers for the more absorbent ends of grain.

Yes, nurse, intensive care.

Is it just me or do you see more of the wood grain were you have the sealer... :?:

I'm a bit late on this as well....my project is sat in a bag on the top shelf of the wardrobe! I'm not sure if I can offer any help at all as the Urchin is going to be green burst, black to green so I'm not too concerned about woody colours!!

However, I have to say that your work so far has been of the standard we expect from you.... very very nice indeed!

I have decided to "pop" the grain in the veneer with a black all over tint, sanded right back before the green goes on...

Frenchy wrote:Is it just me or do you see more of the wood grain were you have the sealer... :?:

Yes there is definitely crisper definition. Have to admit I was doubtful of the sealer idea but now .., makes all my colour experiments a bit redundant. Running out of off cuts to work with, of this particular wood that is.

corsair wrote:
However, I have to say that your work so far has been of the standard we expect from you.... very very nice indeed!

Thankyou John, theres lots to go wrong yet. Already had one or more stupid mishaps, like the first piece I picked for the front. Rough marked it up with chalk then when I went to cut it decided the grain pattern would look better at a different angle, ended up with one side too narrow.

Im hoping this is my last test run. Stage 1 getting the seal and red on.
This is the piece I was going to use but cut it the wrong size-



As a sealer Ive used a traditional car finish product, 3 part acrylic based system. Normally for a glaze you would use something like 2 parts of the lacquer to 1 part hardener and 0-10% thinner. Here Ive tried with no hardener and swiped left to right with a cloth and from top to bottom a mix of glaze to thinner of 1:1, 1:2, 1:3 and 1:4 - so all very thin glazes. The edges of each swipe will blur and are not noticeable.



Then some of the indian red stain



Looking good to me, some stain didnt take on the 1:1 mix so its going to be 1:3 or 1:4.

Been a while but been busy. Heres with the brown. Sanded between red and brown except for the left edge, note the previous blemishes in the thicker sealant have gone.


Here it is with a few sprays of varnish, no sanding.



This shows the problem with varnishing ash, you simply cant get a smooth finish without grain filling but doing that smudges the definition. I like the texture anyway. It also shows that the lack of sanding towards the left gives the start of a darkening of the burst for the glueline and edges.

Heres a another couple of pieces, the small one is similar to the back of the guitar.

Body sanded:-


And have gone for it, a seal applied:-

Oooo, I'm liking it already.

Nipples getting hard in anticipation.

Sorry grogg but I prefer the grain on the back. The front looks like different pieces of timber which I thought you were trying to get away from.
Like the way you did it keeping the centre.

Barry wrote:Oooo, I'm liking it already.

Nipples getting hard in anticipation.

TMI, Barry..... T.... M.... I....