Taming tone

It works like this....
That little Pantera of mine,as some of you know i replaced the bridge pup with a SD JB.
IMO a great improvement over the rail equipped MMK45 it replaced.
However,due to the guitar being maple/maple it carries quite a bit of brightness as well as attack when played.

I would like to tame the brightness of it down a little while retaining the attack,and here´s my thoughts...
As my Pantera is an "early" 300 i lacks a tonepot.
I´m thinking alog the lines of soldering a few very small caps in between signal and ground to bleed some of that brightness off.
This NOT to make it into a "mahogony" guitar,but just to mellow that sharpness it carries out a bit.

I´m giving consideration to some approx 250pF caps.

Whatta you guys think?

Point is that we rehearsed last night,and FTW we were just fooling around the last hr or so with some good ol fashioned funk.
For that...the Pantera fits like a glove.
We do play it LOUD,and when doing so and all of those approx 100W of valve power breathes it sure becomes bright-like no matter what.
The attack of the guitar though puts it right in a sweetspot.

Jesper, just fit a tone control! Easy peasy....

John....that´s the friggin point!
I don´t WANT to drill into the guitar.

What i AM giving consideration to tho is sanding that awful pink down and just stain the maple underneath.

We just pulled that stunt on friends old -80 vintage Epi Genesis,and that the boys at the factory had the nerve to "hide" that beutiful woodwork underneath paint is nothing short of a dayum shame.

What about switching the Pot for a 250k? Or for a bonkers and fast experiment, turn the JB round so the adjustable poles face the neck.

Hi Jesper.

This is just a brainstorm on my part so slap down me if this is stupid, but you could try to fit a trim pot inside the control cavity. Wire the pickup through this first, set it like a normal tone pot then leave it set inside the guitar?

I have an old article in a magazine which used a similar idea for coil tapping. The basic idea was to set the trim pots around halfway to get a coil tapped sound while maintaining the noise reducing humbucking aspect of the pickups. When you went to flick your coil tap switch on, instead of just hearing one of the coils on and the other dead, the second coil was just slightly on to humbuck the noise but have little effect on the actual sound overall.

I can't see why something similar couldn't be placed inside your guitar, not as a coil tap just a tone control, effectively a preset mini tone circuit.

I'll see if I can find the magazine just to make sure I'm not talking complete crap!

DAN.

The pink isn't awful, don't ruin it.

Duo.
You´re right.

Idea of mine though has been to replace the SC pups of it as well eventualy.
Have given thought to some of the "area" pups by DM,and then with the build specs of the pantera in mind.
Ie;hard maple.(Loads of attack and loads of brightness)

What i´m striving for here is not pure vintage tone.
Got enough guitars that can cope that.
What i´m looking to "fab" is a guitar more pointed towards rock and easier going 80s metal asf.
From that respect the pantera has given me the impression that it´s right at home-no doubt.

Ie;the downright mindblowing attack it carries i can indeed use,while the brightness that comes with it..weeeeeeeell...
As is i dial this on the amp,but that´s just the point.
I shouldn´t need to to that degree,so hence why i play around with the idea of installing a small capacity capacitor towards ground to bleed some of that massive amount of screaming treble off.
The thing here is that as such i can do this for each of the 3 pups.
Ie; for instance a 220pF for the JB,a 500pF for the SCs respectively.

PickoFahrad as i wanna bleed the absolute TOP of the treble off.Nothing more.
FWIW.The volume pot i indeed use,and rather extensively at that.Tonepots on the other hand...nah...don´t have time for that.I rather swap guitars midst set if need be.
That said...i wanna go on record and state that as time has passed...that Pantera of mine...talk about bang for the buck.
Sure...it needed some work as i picked it up,but hey...let´s put things into perspective here.
I paid 80 euros for it

Warrn btw.
Think what you will,no offense,but that pink colour at least makes me wanna downright barf.
So...sorry to disappoint you,but it IS coming off.
Sooner or later.

I don't really see the point of not modding the guitar for a tone pot if you're going to strip the paint off anyway. It seems kind of silly to me. Good luck with it regardless.

Alternatively, just trade someone your pink one for one that isn't pink.

Jesper, you do realise by removing pink paint from a Westone you risk getting hit by the full force of Polly's fury! (Our great moderator and Queen of all things pink!).
God knows what bodily harm she could do with her pink wellies on!

DAN.

Might be Dan...might be

Point being that some of the Uncle Mat axes carry ludecrous amounts of topcoat,and i´m absolutely certain it kills tone to a large degree.

My idea is to have the body of the pantera what´s known as "furniture blasted".
Boys that do that use walnut crush to clean wood from paint from what i understand,and this method is a rather subtle way of getting the wood clean again.

Idea i´ve got is to get the entire guitar-sans the "front" of the head with the westone logo-clean and then just stain the body dark brown in a burst kind of way.Neck will remain maple clean and just get oiled to finish.

A couple of things that has impressed me with the pantera is that its ergonomical-due coarse it feels lighter than it is,it carries absolutely MASSVE amounts of attack and is a fast and nice guitar to play around with being resonant like few others.
Very very well built in general,very thought through,altho as usual i feel that the OEM pups leave something to be desired,but that´s more to attribute to the era than anything else IMO.Jap pups in general can be rather "cold" to the sound though.

Friend of mine has a digital decal/sticker cutter.Ergo,i´ve taken pics of the Pantera logo and asked him to cut a number of them out of very very thin foil.
IOW,the pantera logo will still be there..

No.
I don´t wanna drill another hole in the guitar as that would detract from the guitars identity,while i feel a change in colour will not.
Further,scavanging another of those knobs somewhere....nope..
Fail to see the point.

Dunno about the rest of you guys,but when we gig it is very seldome i use the tonepots TBH.
I DO use the volume one-s extensively,but the tone...nah..
Hence why i feel it would be an idea to just install caps over respective pup til satisfied.
OEM this guitar carries MUCH tone,and IMO some of it needs to be tamed out.
As is i need to basicaly tune the amps to where they dont really belong EQ wise.

I guess some of you are aware of the Uncle Mat "variatone",this is basicaly along the same idea...just there´s no switch to turn.
IOW,one size fits all,and the capacity of the caps here is along minute amounts of shaping tone.

Why not make some kind of stompbox with a varitone circuit. Or put a varitone switch on the guitar(knob) shouldn't be hard to make a knob with all the facilities at your disposal. Seeing as they made them with a tone control. Won't detract from any value or authenticity. Seems the simplist thing to do, then you can change as many caps as you need to "find" your tone.

Or simply use a 7 band EQ box that you can switch in or out. Very useful.

I'm sure I've seen push pull pots that allow both Volume and Tone control as well as pots with an inner and outer "controls" on the same shaft.

Frankly, I'm getting a bit hmmmmm cynical about what wood produces what tone. Pickup height affects tone, type of amp, effects pedal in a chain, string choice, ceramic or alnico 5 Pups etc etc etc... . Sustain I can understand, But with so many PUP manufacturers claiming to have the ultimate tone, who is to be believed. Its all abit like the "Kings new clothes".

Brian May uses his red special ( hand wound Pups and lots of knobs and switches, oak and mahogany body and neck) and still puts it through a stomp box and if I remember correctly, 6 x AC 30's. His "tone" would disappear completely if put through my Carlsbro.

I read somewhere on the internet where someone was claiming tone varied from a maple fretboard to rosewood one. Rubbish .I recently played a Switch guitar made of Vibrocell, a resin type material. Close your eyes and you wouldnt of known it.

Still beauty is the eye of the beholder. Until someone gives me a set of graphs or science based readings showing how different woods(or materials) perform tone wise, I shall remain ever so cynical

Agreed Steve.
There´s lots of hype and lots of mojo in this.
That there IS differences tho is beyond a doubt as far as i´m concerned.

What´s more...taint pink no more ...and underneath those MASSIVE amounts of armor paint was hidden some really really beutiful maple let me tell you...
Neck has already gotten its first strokes of oil,while the body still needs work.

Racing wrote:...taint pink no more...and underneath those MASSIVE amounts of armor paint was hidden some really really beutiful maple...

Jesper you wild and crazy guy!
I would have thought they put that tough finish over mis-matched or sub-standard wood. Sounds like you got lucky!
Uncle Mats strikes again!

Now, of course, you'll have to answer to our Polly. The 'Pink Booted One' will no doubt scold you severely for your transgression.!

I´ll reply this way Barry...








...in essence,you tell me...

Why the boys at Mat decided to hide this from us is beyond me at least.
O tempera o mores in its own right...but that´s a beutiful piece of maple right there.

I don't think Uncle Mat knew how to use less pretty woods. Every example of a stripped Mat I've seen has been a beauty. Still wouldn't do that to any of mine, though.

To each and his own i guess,and i´m 100% happy with the decision.
When you get upclose with it..it sure stands out.
After all,maple is by many considered to be a less beutiful wood...which i have to say is beyond me...but hey...as stated,to each and his own.

Before i got rid of the paint i was basicaly set on tainting/staining the body...but as it turned out i have to say i don´t see that as cleacut anymore.
Body is so good looking that i´m giving thought to simply oiling it up and buffing it out.

Then again,from an estetic POW might be that an all maple guitar will be over the top?

Wow, you're right, it is beautiful! Now you have the problem of how to finish her.
I would be tempted to oil her up too, however with a maple neck, I agree it might be too much maple and you would lose the impact.

Perhaps a transparent colour of some kind? (I'm thinking of Kees' beautiful blue Skylark here) or maybe something like the trans red finish on the Avenger AV325?

Uhu.
I´ve been playing around with the idea of staining it light oak in the middle and kind of build a burst,going darker and darker the more towards the edge of it we get.

Then top it off with a couple of layers of clear.

Neck will remain just oiled up though,and it honestly looks and more importantly FEELS like a million bux compared to the eggshell black that was on there.

Hmmm, not bad.
Would you be able to something with a bit more "fire" in it, like a tobacco sunburst for example? Wouldn't be easy, but could be a stunning effect!

Agreed.
I´ve even given thought to pinstriping it.

Well.....i couldn´t really contain myself could i.....

So...as i had the body cleaned out i simply gave it some oil...which really didn´t turn out all that well...
In fact it simply looks like something someone made in shop at school,so...back to the drawing board on that one.


However.

Good friend Kaj was the first one up to "teach" me about the drawback of massive amounts of clearcoat.
I reasoned as such previously that it indeed IS a lot of "mojo" and in essence BS....
Well.
My bad.I was wrong.

The thing is...
This Pantera with its now basicaly bare body simply went into full bloom like a wildflower.
To the point where i have to state that it´s way beyond what i could ever imagine.
Downright friggin amazing!

The "issue" that this post started out with....well...the attack is still there,but that over the top treble is all gone.
Instead,what´s come forward is a VERY pronounced upper midrange-which is USABLE.

So...here i am.Basicaly with one foot on each base.What to do?
I dunno guys...i´m absolutely hell bent on NOT putting any sort of clearcoat on it again...i WILL not restrain tone by doing that.
Like H*LL NO!
Period.

On the other hand...i can´t have a body that looks like a 10yr old brought it home from woodshop...
Tricky to say the least,but TBH i´ve REALLY learned something here.
Free your tone...the rest will follow...

Neck btw...just oil on that sanded smooth canadian hardmaple...just trust me...dayum....
It friggin LOOKS like a million bux,but more importantly it friggin PLAYS like a million bux!
Feel of it...i´m lost for words...it´s THAT good.

Couldn't you just oil the body as well?

That´s exactly what i did,it´s just that the body is from different grade maple and won´t darken the same way the neck did.
Ie;the neck is all it can be as is while the body needs some more thought.

Hi Racing,

Had the same happen with a bass recently and went out and bought the same brand of oil but with a tinted color in it. It's called Dark Oak or something... not at home right now... and will be testing that out on a scrap piece of wood. If it looks OK will be doing the body with the tinted oil and the clear oil worked wonders on the Canadian birds eye maple Neck!

Will let you know the results but I think that tinted oil might be the solution... and since you allready gave it a clear coat, that can stay on for the wash coat... the tint will still look amazing just by building ontop of it...Been pondering on this for a month...

P.

Yeah Pierre,TBH i´m starting to lean that way as well.
My thinking going along the lines of tinted oil,and following up by using the buffer more or less hardcore as it all starts to set.

I agree with Pierre. Rather than try and remove the oil, leave it as a sealer coat.
Having just gone through the stripping and refinishing of the Avenger I found that having a sealer coat really is needed to even out the colour on raw wood.

Even so, in my case, there was still quite a lot of variance in the grains which made it look a bit blotchy and uneven no matter what I did. It was also Ash rather than Maple so that didn't help much either. I think the sunburst idea might still work but it depends of course on how good the centre panel(s) look since they would be more visible than the darker outside edges.

I don't know if this simple wood finishing trick has been mentioned before in these forums, but if you wipe down raw wood with a damp cloth you get a very good approximation of what the wood will look like with a clear finish. You also see the grain pattern more clearly. (Be aware that it also raises the grain a bit too, so you need to give it a light sanding before applying a finish.)

Dude, I own a x275 Cherry Stain, I put a dual stacked 500K pot (not mini, full size, fit right in) in and wired the bottom half as the tone pot. It has huge dual concentric knobs that look right at home on the Pantera.
This works great, also in mine I went with Dimarzio across the board. A Fred in the bridge, Cruiser Neck in the middle, and a Chopper in the neck. Granted mine is made of "Sen" wood, not maple but this combo sounds great.