Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
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Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Ya know, gas is an irritating thing.
And it can cause you public embarrassment when it's out of control.
As many of us know too well, GAS can also be an irritant, but of course not in quite the same way.
Sometimes it just won't leave you alone until you find what you want.
But when you cannot find what you really want, you can veer off into the guitar netherworld!
Such is this tale.
I am always on the prowl for Matsumoku guitars that I can afford (and that's the key phrase). It's been about 2 years since I found my last local Westone, and having been unsuccessful since I've been trying to satiate the gurgling with other brands that I like.
Still bugger all.
So last spring I bought a Squier Mustang for fun and giggles. But nothing since.
Until yesterday.
I am the happy owner of two US made Ovations, one of which I gigged and recorded with. The other one I have played live. really well made guitars and rock solid sound--amplified. Acoustically, just average.
So when I started looking at Ovations, I hoped to find something interesting. And I did.
Seller's PIX:
A nice looking entry-level Ovation Celebrity model in Ruby Red finish. This is made in China and everything is very "light weight" and apparently quickly assembled but I figured it would make a nice little thing to leave out for occasional strumming when the urge hits.
And a good price too!
So what's wrong with it? Thanks for asking.
Um, this:
The bridge has lifted and completely messed up the action.
On a standard acoustic guitar repairing this is usually straight forward. It's a PITA, but straight forward.
However, Ovations live in a different world.
The overall body construction is different, the bracing is different, and the bridge and its attachment is completely different.
The closest it comes in assembly is to a classical guitar bridge. It sits on top of the sound board and there are no bridge pins. The strings pass straight through the bridge, and there are two small bolts anchoring it to the top, in addition to being glued
In the lower priced Ovation models (and many other manufacturers too) the finish is applied to the top and the bridge is glued to the finish! No wood to wood connection. Sometimes it works OK, sometimes not.
If that was all that needed fixing it would be OK to remove, scrape, clean, re-glue, and clamp the bridge.
But in my case, the guitar is extremely dry and has never been humidified. There's even dust inside the bowl and the label was so dry it just popped off!
There is a large hump behind the bridge caused by its rotation. There does not appear to be any broken bracing but the wood is very light and not offering much structural resistance. Oh, and the kicker? There is no bridge plate in this design. All the stress is on the top and it's up to the braces to hold everything together. Which they of course have not.
I've looked at a number of options, none of which are easy, but I think I am going to start by trying to humidify the wood to see if anything good will happen.
I don't know if the membership is interested in following this one or not. I'll post up more pix if so, but this will not be a quick repair, and I'm happy to entertain options from the learned folks here.
And it can cause you public embarrassment when it's out of control.
As many of us know too well, GAS can also be an irritant, but of course not in quite the same way.
Sometimes it just won't leave you alone until you find what you want.
But when you cannot find what you really want, you can veer off into the guitar netherworld!
Such is this tale.
I am always on the prowl for Matsumoku guitars that I can afford (and that's the key phrase). It's been about 2 years since I found my last local Westone, and having been unsuccessful since I've been trying to satiate the gurgling with other brands that I like.
Still bugger all.
So last spring I bought a Squier Mustang for fun and giggles. But nothing since.
Until yesterday.
I am the happy owner of two US made Ovations, one of which I gigged and recorded with. The other one I have played live. really well made guitars and rock solid sound--amplified. Acoustically, just average.
So when I started looking at Ovations, I hoped to find something interesting. And I did.
Seller's PIX:
A nice looking entry-level Ovation Celebrity model in Ruby Red finish. This is made in China and everything is very "light weight" and apparently quickly assembled but I figured it would make a nice little thing to leave out for occasional strumming when the urge hits.
And a good price too!
So what's wrong with it? Thanks for asking.
Um, this:
The bridge has lifted and completely messed up the action.
On a standard acoustic guitar repairing this is usually straight forward. It's a PITA, but straight forward.
However, Ovations live in a different world.
The overall body construction is different, the bracing is different, and the bridge and its attachment is completely different.
The closest it comes in assembly is to a classical guitar bridge. It sits on top of the sound board and there are no bridge pins. The strings pass straight through the bridge, and there are two small bolts anchoring it to the top, in addition to being glued
In the lower priced Ovation models (and many other manufacturers too) the finish is applied to the top and the bridge is glued to the finish! No wood to wood connection. Sometimes it works OK, sometimes not.
If that was all that needed fixing it would be OK to remove, scrape, clean, re-glue, and clamp the bridge.
But in my case, the guitar is extremely dry and has never been humidified. There's even dust inside the bowl and the label was so dry it just popped off!
There is a large hump behind the bridge caused by its rotation. There does not appear to be any broken bracing but the wood is very light and not offering much structural resistance. Oh, and the kicker? There is no bridge plate in this design. All the stress is on the top and it's up to the braces to hold everything together. Which they of course have not.
I've looked at a number of options, none of which are easy, but I think I am going to start by trying to humidify the wood to see if anything good will happen.
I don't know if the membership is interested in following this one or not. I'll post up more pix if so, but this will not be a quick repair, and I'm happy to entertain options from the learned folks here.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Hell, yes I'm interested, Barry!!
My first thought is whether you can add some sort of strengthening plate underneath the soundboard, beneath the bridge? A slightly larger than bridge sized piece of three-ply, perhaps?
WWDD? (What would Dan Do?) :-D
My first thought is whether you can add some sort of strengthening plate underneath the soundboard, beneath the bridge? A slightly larger than bridge sized piece of three-ply, perhaps?
WWDD? (What would Dan Do?) :-D
corsair- Senior Member
- Number of posts : 6352
Age : 65
Location : Mount Hunter, NSW, Australia
Registration date : 2008-04-08
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Glue it and sell it.
Sounds like a pile of junk from your description.
Unless you just want to mess about with it.
Sounds like a pile of junk from your description.
Unless you just want to mess about with it.
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Damian, it was known that it was not a "collector level" machine going in.
Not exactly junk (but certainly not to the US made standard). I just felt like a little project challenge, and I sure got it!
I figured if I could get it into playing condition I'd either give it to my son who's been wanting an acoustic to bang on, or flip it and make a couple of dollars. Or if it turned out OK I'd just keep handy to strum on while watching the tube.
Just gluing the bridge down makes little sense since the hump caused by the rotation makes it still unplayable.
Not exactly junk (but certainly not to the US made standard). I just felt like a little project challenge, and I sure got it!
I figured if I could get it into playing condition I'd either give it to my son who's been wanting an acoustic to bang on, or flip it and make a couple of dollars. Or if it turned out OK I'd just keep handy to strum on while watching the tube.
Just gluing the bridge down makes little sense since the hump caused by the rotation makes it still unplayable.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Ideally yes John, these little buggers are designed to have no bridge plate. A really dumb idea.corsair wrote:...My first thought is whether you can add some sort of strengthening plate underneath the soundboard, beneath the bridge
Adding one would certainly help but the space available is severely limited by the bracing pattern. It's on the list of things to do.
Meantime I've started intensive re-hydration in the hope that some of the wood will start to behave itself and give me a fighting chance at fixing the bridge.
I'll post some more pix later.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Meantime, please enjoy this musical interlude. . .
For those who have never heard an Ovation give a listen to Jeffrey Matz playing the beautiful jazz standard, Laura.
His instrument this time out? Why, it's a Chinese made Ovation Celebrity Elite model!
If you didn't know you never would have guessed that plastic could have sounded so good!
His instrument this time out? Why, it's a Chinese made Ovation Celebrity Elite model!
If you didn't know you never would have guessed that plastic could have sounded so good!
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Not the best pix (hey, it's indoors, winter and cloudy) but here's an idea of the bellying up condition.
The flash makes the image hard edged and it was awkward to get the straight edge steady while taking the picture, hence the green tape. But focus on the shadow under the rule and you can see the outline of the domed soundboard.
Here's a better idea of the bridge condition.
That is a business card under there, not a piece of paper! And there is still lots of space above.
The strings were loosened for these pix so you can see the "set" everything has taken is dramatic:
One more:
See that thin line on the surface under the bridge? That is a position mark outline etched into the finish by the manufacturer. These bridges are glued to the the finish, not to bare wood! However, you'll notice that there is no evidence of adhesive anywhere.
Either it was never glued down or this back edge was missed entirely.
The only thing holding against the string tension has been two 3/16 bolts" through the thin sound board. No wonder it pulled up.
The flash makes the image hard edged and it was awkward to get the straight edge steady while taking the picture, hence the green tape. But focus on the shadow under the rule and you can see the outline of the domed soundboard.
Here's a better idea of the bridge condition.
That is a business card under there, not a piece of paper! And there is still lots of space above.
The strings were loosened for these pix so you can see the "set" everything has taken is dramatic:
One more:
See that thin line on the surface under the bridge? That is a position mark outline etched into the finish by the manufacturer. These bridges are glued to the the finish, not to bare wood! However, you'll notice that there is no evidence of adhesive anywhere.
Either it was never glued down or this back edge was missed entirely.
The only thing holding against the string tension has been two 3/16 bolts" through the thin sound board. No wonder it pulled up.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Rehydration attempt
Before I attempt anything drastic, like removing, gluing or clamping any of the wood, I first want to see if I can get this "Sahara" assembly to soak up some moisture and hopefully restore some flexibility into what's left.
I think trying to apply any pressure at this stage is likely to snap the very thin fragile looking bracing.
Preliminary inspection seems to indicate that nothing is actually broken and it's all still glued OK. Just warped.
Here's the plan:
I placed a small plastic dish on the bottom and put a very damp terry cloth into it. No need to worry about the body since it is a plastic compound which should actually help here:
I then pushed the whole thing further down towards the bridge and wrapped the guitar body in a garbage bag:
(I know, I know, looks like a Mafia hit ready for a sleep with the fishes)
Finally, to encourage things more I placed a small plank of wood on top of the bridge then put a weight on it, a small socket wrench set in this case. Maybe about 1kg or less, I didn't weigh it, just grabbed whatever was handy.
It been about 18 hours or so as I write this. I'll open it up tonight and have a peek. (fingers crossed)
I think trying to apply any pressure at this stage is likely to snap the very thin fragile looking bracing.
Preliminary inspection seems to indicate that nothing is actually broken and it's all still glued OK. Just warped.
Here's the plan:
I placed a small plastic dish on the bottom and put a very damp terry cloth into it. No need to worry about the body since it is a plastic compound which should actually help here:
I then pushed the whole thing further down towards the bridge and wrapped the guitar body in a garbage bag:
(I know, I know, looks like a Mafia hit ready for a sleep with the fishes)
Finally, to encourage things more I placed a small plank of wood on top of the bridge then put a weight on it, a small socket wrench set in this case. Maybe about 1kg or less, I didn't weigh it, just grabbed whatever was handy.
It been about 18 hours or so as I write this. I'll open it up tonight and have a peek. (fingers crossed)
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
You're a real ray of sunshine aren't you Damian?Westbone wrote:Probably loosen all the glue and fall apart.
I suppose that's a possibility depending on just what adhesive they used on the bracing.
Who knows but I'm guessing it's likely a PVA based wood glue of some description. If it's based on basic white glue I'm in trouble. If they've formulated it for moisture resistance (a good possibility) I should be OK.
On the more expensive Ovations epoxy or polyurethane glues tend to be used on the structural components, but the only sign of that on this guitar is at the neck joint which was very sloppily done and shows a lot of squeeze out.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
I still reckon you're best served by putting in some sort of backing piece under the soundboard, eh! However, yeah; gotta agree that that lump should be flattened out as much as possible...
I don't think it's a damp squib at all; rather an interesting deviation from the norm, and just the thing to exercise the mind and hands!!
I don't think it's a damp squib at all; rather an interesting deviation from the norm, and just the thing to exercise the mind and hands!!
corsair- Senior Member
- Number of posts : 6352
Age : 65
Location : Mount Hunter, NSW, Australia
Registration date : 2008-04-08
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Cheers John. Yeah, the main reason for getting it was for the opportunity to work on something familiar but quite different, ya know?
This will never give my high end Ovations (or any "real" acoustic guitars for that matter) any serious competition but the goal is to restore it to a playable condition if possible. And learn a thing or two along the way.
And just because it's different doesn't make it useless crap. My Danelectros are made of Masonite for Pete's sake, and I just love 'em!
Music doesn't care what it's created on. Witness Diddly Bo and Cigar Box guitars.
If this adventure doesn't work out I have a couple more dramatic ideas to try on 'Ruby'. Something is bound to work eh?
This will never give my high end Ovations (or any "real" acoustic guitars for that matter) any serious competition but the goal is to restore it to a playable condition if possible. And learn a thing or two along the way.
And just because it's different doesn't make it useless crap. My Danelectros are made of Masonite for Pete's sake, and I just love 'em!
Music doesn't care what it's created on. Witness Diddly Bo and Cigar Box guitars.
If this adventure doesn't work out I have a couple more dramatic ideas to try on 'Ruby'. Something is bound to work eh?
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Update: After 24 hrs in the sauna...
I didn't take a picture but I can report that the treatment is working!
I did a quick check this evening and the bridge has come down and is now nearly touching the sound board.
The hump is still pretty dramatic but just eyeballing it with the straight edge, it too is down about 20% or so.
Encouraged by this I decided to continue the treatment but up the weight.
I replaced the light piece of wood and tool box with a longer section of wood and two 8lb hand weights that were laying around.
That should either flatten the top or flatten the guitar!
Sorry to disappoint Damian, it's still together.
Film at eleven.
I did a quick check this evening and the bridge has come down and is now nearly touching the sound board.
The hump is still pretty dramatic but just eyeballing it with the straight edge, it too is down about 20% or so.
Encouraged by this I decided to continue the treatment but up the weight.
I replaced the light piece of wood and tool box with a longer section of wood and two 8lb hand weights that were laying around.
That should either flatten the top or flatten the guitar!
Sorry to disappoint Damian, it's still together.
Film at eleven.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Droll, very droll.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Oh Ye of Little Faith...Dig It!
Here's a quick progress report after a further 48 hrs under hydration with heavy weights.
Sound board (ahead of the bridge) is virtually flat:
That nasty hump behind the bridge is definitely coming down. I could not manage to balance the scale at centre and take the picture so look at the right side gap and divide by 2
And the bridge itself is slowly righting itself, not much of a gap now:
I'm very encouraged by the results so far and I at least have a good chance at getting "Ruby"'s voice back!
The next step will be to remove the bridge and reglue it.
From there I have a couple of options, one messy and involving additional bracing, the other less so and a bit unorthodox, involving adapting a JDL Bridge Doctor to flatten and stabilize the top.
Sound board (ahead of the bridge) is virtually flat:
That nasty hump behind the bridge is definitely coming down. I could not manage to balance the scale at centre and take the picture so look at the right side gap and divide by 2
And the bridge itself is slowly righting itself, not much of a gap now:
I'm very encouraged by the results so far and I at least have a good chance at getting "Ruby"'s voice back!
The next step will be to remove the bridge and reglue it.
From there I have a couple of options, one messy and involving additional bracing, the other less so and a bit unorthodox, involving adapting a JDL Bridge Doctor to flatten and stabilize the top.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Update & Bridge Screws Removal
UPDATE
Progress this past week or so has pretty well come to a halt because we had a very upsetting situation to deal with.
Our youngest and strongest cat, dear Dexter, developed heart troubles a couple of months ago which caused fluid build up in his chest and made it increasingly difficult to breathe. We've been supporting him and nursing him, up until last week, when it was clear the inevitable was going to happen.
We said goodbye to him 2 days ago. And I my eyes are still red.
I'm an emotional guy at the best of times but losing a pet hits hard, particularly when I am barely over losing my oldest cat (17 yrs) just last August from diabetes.
So, you understand why fixing guitars was the last thing on my mind.
The Eames Zoo is now down to one cat and one dog...and some fish.
BRIDGE SCREWS REMOVAL
Some good news!
The several days of hydration have pretty much brought the bridge back to where it belongs.
The hump is still there but reduced, but I am optimistic that it will flatten out a bit when everything gets re-glued and clamped.
First item of business before attempting removal of the bridge was to remove the two "bolts" anchoring it.
I made a small indentation in the centre of the plastic dot with an awl to help guide the drill bit. Then I wrapped a piece of masking tape to act as a depth stop and s-l-o-w-l-y drilled the plastic, trying not to bugger up the wood in the process.
The process went a lot smoother than I was expecting and the plug came right out attached to the bit.
Next step, remove those miserable little "bolts".
I scraped away as much residual glue and plastic as possible to expose the Philips head which was ridiculously tiny.
I ended up using the pointy corner of a small flat head screwdriver to dig into the groove and torque the little buggers loose while grabbing the nut inside the very confined space of the body. (This is a "Super Shallow" bowl design, not much room in there at all, especially for arthritic fingers!)
Finally! Out they came!
These are stupid small bolts, about 3mm dia. I have no idea what the hell they were thinking by using these for structural support.
And of course there were no washers either to help spread the tension load. That, on top of no bridge plate in the first place!
Geez!
In any event, they're now out!
And I have returned the guitar to the body bag for another round of hydration, you know, just in case things want to move some more without the screws binding everything up!
Next will be removing the bridge and regluing.
For that I need to buy a suitable deep throat clamp...and some epoxy!
Hey it's an Ovation. They have no meaningful dialog with Titebond!
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Belt and braces, Barry - make a space under there for a bridge plate and epoxy that mother in there too!!
I don't reckon losing the small amount of bracing you may have to remove is going to make a jot of difference to the sound of this guitar....
No washers?!? That's taking building to a price to the extreme, isn't - nuts and bolts don't work properly unless there's washers in the mix somewhere!!
Anyway.... starting to come right, eh?!?
I don't reckon losing the small amount of bracing you may have to remove is going to make a jot of difference to the sound of this guitar....
No washers?!? That's taking building to a price to the extreme, isn't - nuts and bolts don't work properly unless there's washers in the mix somewhere!!
Anyway.... starting to come right, eh?!?
corsair- Senior Member
- Number of posts : 6352
Age : 65
Location : Mount Hunter, NSW, Australia
Registration date : 2008-04-08
Getting ready for lift off!
The next step is an attempt to remove the bridge completely so that it can be prepped for a re-gluing.
I had been waiting for a deep throat C clamp to arrive, which it did today:
Ideally I should use a thinner artist's palette knife for this but it was too far a drive from where I was at the Home Depot to get a $5 item.
Instead I'll start with a new putty knife, the thinnest one I could find, while I was picking up the J B Weld epoxy that I'll use to reset the bridge.
You'll recall there was already quite a separation so it is not difficult to find an entry point:
Ordinarily I'd remove the piezo and wiring, however, this model has what they call a "super shallow" bowl which is even flatter than my top end Ovations.
There is just no room to manoeuver in there to unplug the lead, at least not without risking damage to everything else connected to the pre-amp. These units are snapped in from the outside but trying to find the release clips to remove them is damn near impossible. And my finger strength and flexibility ain't wot it used ta be!
So I'm just pulling the lead through for now and I'll revisit it after I see how much damage (if any) there is on the bridge bottom. If it's significant I'll have another think about removing it:
Next up. Find the wife's iron and heat the bugger up!
I had been waiting for a deep throat C clamp to arrive, which it did today:
Ideally I should use a thinner artist's palette knife for this but it was too far a drive from where I was at the Home Depot to get a $5 item.
Instead I'll start with a new putty knife, the thinnest one I could find, while I was picking up the J B Weld epoxy that I'll use to reset the bridge.
You'll recall there was already quite a separation so it is not difficult to find an entry point:
Ordinarily I'd remove the piezo and wiring, however, this model has what they call a "super shallow" bowl which is even flatter than my top end Ovations.
There is just no room to manoeuver in there to unplug the lead, at least not without risking damage to everything else connected to the pre-amp. These units are snapped in from the outside but trying to find the release clips to remove them is damn near impossible. And my finger strength and flexibility ain't wot it used ta be!
So I'm just pulling the lead through for now and I'll revisit it after I see how much damage (if any) there is on the bridge bottom. If it's significant I'll have another think about removing it:
Next up. Find the wife's iron and heat the bugger up!
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Yup.
Unless I hit epoxy.
Unless I hit epoxy.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
A pox on yer poxy.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Thanks I'll share 'em with the dog!
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
The heat is on
Made a start at trying to break this funky little bridge free.
And as I suspected I'm fairly certain I've hit epoxy!
Just heating the knife wasn't enough to budge it. So the iron is now full on:
I also heated the knife but it's still slow going. And the stuff is gummy as hell when heated:
What I'm discovering is that the blade appears to be hitting something that appears to be an edge which I am guessing means that the bridge may be recessed into the finish?! (Ovations tend to have a very heavy finish so it's very likely). THAT should prove to be interesting to try and remove. *sigh*
I'm stopping for now because there are other things to do on Valentine's Day. But I'll resume tomorrow with a more concerted effort. Fingers crossed.
And as I suspected I'm fairly certain I've hit epoxy!
Just heating the knife wasn't enough to budge it. So the iron is now full on:
I also heated the knife but it's still slow going. And the stuff is gummy as hell when heated:
What I'm discovering is that the blade appears to be hitting something that appears to be an edge which I am guessing means that the bridge may be recessed into the finish?! (Ovations tend to have a very heavy finish so it's very likely). THAT should prove to be interesting to try and remove. *sigh*
I'm stopping for now because there are other things to do on Valentine's Day. But I'll resume tomorrow with a more concerted effort. Fingers crossed.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
"Boil in a bag"
Ahahahahahahahahahahaha... do that, Barry!!
Normal service is now restored...
.... you're gonna put a brace underneath that bridge, aren't you?! Hmmm?!
Ahahahahahahahahahahaha... do that, Barry!!
Normal service is now restored...
.... you're gonna put a brace underneath that bridge, aren't you?! Hmmm?!
corsair- Senior Member
- Number of posts : 6352
Age : 65
Location : Mount Hunter, NSW, Australia
Registration date : 2008-04-08
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
'king 'ell. Take off a fingerboard with a hot scraper no problem.
You wanna iron the creases outta that guit !
You wanna iron the creases outta that guit !
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Youz guyz ain't helping!
I'm really flummoxed here.
Looking at the last pic above, that's the point at which I'm definitely hitting something hard, on both sides and along the back edge as well. There is definitely resistance.
The question is, am I hitting a solid lump of epoxy, or is there something else, like being recessed into the finish? Every O bridge I've seen is flat on the bottom and the only mechanical fastening is those stupid bolts.
I'm going easy because the bridge is quite thin at the ends and I'm resisting the urge to get too medieval with the metal and accidentally lever the thing and break it.
There isn't any supplier that I have found for a replacement, so steady as she goes, and I'm not under any deadline pressure here so why rush?
I'll be having another go this weekend and I'll see if more heat is the answer to releasing this little bugger.
I'm really flummoxed here.
Looking at the last pic above, that's the point at which I'm definitely hitting something hard, on both sides and along the back edge as well. There is definitely resistance.
The question is, am I hitting a solid lump of epoxy, or is there something else, like being recessed into the finish? Every O bridge I've seen is flat on the bottom and the only mechanical fastening is those stupid bolts.
I'm going easy because the bridge is quite thin at the ends and I'm resisting the urge to get too medieval with the metal and accidentally lever the thing and break it.
There isn't any supplier that I have found for a replacement, so steady as she goes, and I'm not under any deadline pressure here so why rush?
I'll be having another go this weekend and I'll see if more heat is the answer to releasing this little bugger.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
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Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Presume you looked underneath the bridge with a mirror. Anything there?
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Nope.
Nada.
Nine.
Rien.
Bugger all.
No bridge plate, just like a classical guitar.
That'll be the next problem to solve as the Fan bracing converges under the bridge making a simple glue in impossible without cutting the braces.
I may just go with beefed up bolts WITH washers!
Nada.
Nine.
Rien.
Bugger all.
No bridge plate, just like a classical guitar.
That'll be the next problem to solve as the Fan bracing converges under the bridge making a simple glue in impossible without cutting the braces.
I may just go with beefed up bolts WITH washers!
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
At last!!
Well, this thing's been bugging the hell out of me.
So, I made an executive decision to get a much thinner knife (which I should have done in the first place). Off I went to the local arts n crafts shop an got an artist's palette knife.
Nice and thin and flexible with all the appropriate angles and pointy bits needed for this operation.
The result? Well...
That's it in the foreground, backed up with the original tools I was using, keeping the gap open as I worked.
As Damian has been yelling at me to do, and as I was originally doing, I just heated the palette knife and with patience it eventually sliced nicely through the crap underneath
As I worked there were a lot of sickening cracks and creaks, which I was prepared to hear, but I was worried most on the saddle side which was very thin. I was concerned that I might destroy the saddle slot in the process.
Fortunately, no. But there was some tear-out in that area:
Now it's clear why the bridge failed.
Moral of the story?
It's OK to be a cheep basturd but use the right tool!
The thin steel made all the difference!
Time to relax.
Exhale.
All is well again.
At least until I reinstall the pesky little bugger.
So, I made an executive decision to get a much thinner knife (which I should have done in the first place). Off I went to the local arts n crafts shop an got an artist's palette knife.
Nice and thin and flexible with all the appropriate angles and pointy bits needed for this operation.
The result? Well...
That's it in the foreground, backed up with the original tools I was using, keeping the gap open as I worked.
As Damian has been yelling at me to do, and as I was originally doing, I just heated the palette knife and with patience it eventually sliced nicely through the crap underneath
As I worked there were a lot of sickening cracks and creaks, which I was prepared to hear, but I was worried most on the saddle side which was very thin. I was concerned that I might destroy the saddle slot in the process.
Fortunately, no. But there was some tear-out in that area:
Now it's clear why the bridge failed.
- Not enough glue!
- They glued it to the bloody finish!
Moral of the story?
It's OK to be a cheep basturd but use the right tool!
The thin steel made all the difference!
Time to relax.
Exhale.
All is well again.
At least until I reinstall the pesky little bugger.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
They don't believe in using much glue do they. Hardly covering the bridge properly. No wonder it lifted.
Also on the finish tut, tut.
Anyway you got it off and your living the dream....not talking about Valentines night....
Good dollop of glue and decent bolt/washers should do the trick.
Also on the finish tut, tut.
Anyway you got it off and your living the dream....not talking about Valentines night....
Good dollop of glue and decent bolt/washers should do the trick.
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Yeah, strictly "Amateur Hour" assembly here eh?
No clue how to glue!
I know it's a budget model but Geez, it still bears a brand name after all.
Gluing to the finish is a very common "technique" particularly with entry level Ovations 'cause it saves money. And they can get away with it because the finish is typically very thick and well anchored to the substrate.
BUT, you still need to prep the damn surfaces properly with complete coverage! This damage could have been avoided by simply using a brush to spread the glue out to the edges instead of squirting it on from a squeeze bottle.
Stuff like this feeds the "crap" image for sure.
But wait...there's more...stay tuned for our next interesting discovery (nothing to do with the bridge)
No clue how to glue!
I know it's a budget model but Geez, it still bears a brand name after all.
Gluing to the finish is a very common "technique" particularly with entry level Ovations 'cause it saves money. And they can get away with it because the finish is typically very thick and well anchored to the substrate.
BUT, you still need to prep the damn surfaces properly with complete coverage! This damage could have been avoided by simply using a brush to spread the glue out to the edges instead of squirting it on from a squeeze bottle.
Stuff like this feeds the "crap" image for sure.
But wait...there's more...stay tuned for our next interesting discovery (nothing to do with the bridge)
Last edited by Barry on Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:17 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo correction)
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
.... and sanding the finish off where it attaches!!
Good work, that man!
Good work, that man!
corsair- Senior Member
- Number of posts : 6352
Age : 65
Location : Mount Hunter, NSW, Australia
Registration date : 2008-04-08
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
The one thing I would watch is keeping the pickup in the bridge on a very flat surface on the body. Wouldn't remove the paint where it contacts.
Any bit of it not on a good flat surface will effect it's signal.
Actually looking at the bottom of the bridge it seems it's ripped the bottom of the pickup slot out when removing it.
New bridge time??? or try it sitting on the body??
Any bit of it not on a good flat surface will effect it's signal.
Actually looking at the bottom of the bridge it seems it's ripped the bottom of the pickup slot out when removing it.
New bridge time??? or try it sitting on the body??
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
As I mentioned in the comment under the picture in post #34 yes, there was some tear-out on the saddle side.
This was one of the few areas that had sufficient glue and was anchored well and I started by trying to ease it off by coming edge on. But it was not responding well and appeared too fragile to push against so I switched to coming in from the ends.
Still meeting a lot of resistance, I decided to continue coming in from the opposite side, which worked. Eventually it just "popped off" as they often do, and unfortunately left some of the bridge behind.
________
The first thing I am going to do is try and carefully slice off those tear-out splinters with a razor blade and glue them back onto the bridge as well as possible before sanding and leveling. That should help to improve contact and avoid filling in any dips and dings with glue only.
Thanks for the suggestion about the contact surface for the pickup. I'm not sure how I can easily remove the finish under the bridge but leave a sliver of it under the saddle.
That would be ideal but the work involved far exceeds the worth of the guitar. At this stage I am seriously considering not removing the finish, at least not to bare wood.
Clean, level and score is my thinking ATM. Same for the bridge.
I'm going to use J B Weld's KwikWeld steel reinforced epoxy with a tensile strength of 2424 psi together with new bolts and the biggest damn washers I can find.
If that doesn't hold this bugger down well then nuts to it!
This was one of the few areas that had sufficient glue and was anchored well and I started by trying to ease it off by coming edge on. But it was not responding well and appeared too fragile to push against so I switched to coming in from the ends.
Still meeting a lot of resistance, I decided to continue coming in from the opposite side, which worked. Eventually it just "popped off" as they often do, and unfortunately left some of the bridge behind.
________
The first thing I am going to do is try and carefully slice off those tear-out splinters with a razor blade and glue them back onto the bridge as well as possible before sanding and leveling. That should help to improve contact and avoid filling in any dips and dings with glue only.
Thanks for the suggestion about the contact surface for the pickup. I'm not sure how I can easily remove the finish under the bridge but leave a sliver of it under the saddle.
That would be ideal but the work involved far exceeds the worth of the guitar. At this stage I am seriously considering not removing the finish, at least not to bare wood.
Clean, level and score is my thinking ATM. Same for the bridge.
I'm going to use J B Weld's KwikWeld steel reinforced epoxy with a tensile strength of 2424 psi together with new bolts and the biggest damn washers I can find.
If that doesn't hold this bugger down well then nuts to it!
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Do you reckon after all this it's gonna get a belly after a little while. Like it had??
Small correction
Now that I have had some time, I have just been surveying the "debris field" much closer, and upon inspection those tear-out bits stuck to the sound board are not from the main part of the bridge at all as first thought.
Rather, they originally were part of an extremely thin "floor" for the saddle slot. Don't ask me how they managed to machine walnut so thin but they did. The purpose I'm guessing was to prevent glue from squeezing up into the slot and interfering with the pickup and saddle.
What that means is that the splinters can be safely removed entirely which is good news! The sound board and the bridge can now be cleaned up with relative ease.
The not so good news is that I now need to figure out how to prevent squeeze out from flooding the slot area when I reattach the bridge.
On it goes...*sigh*
Rather, they originally were part of an extremely thin "floor" for the saddle slot. Don't ask me how they managed to machine walnut so thin but they did. The purpose I'm guessing was to prevent glue from squeezing up into the slot and interfering with the pickup and saddle.
What that means is that the splinters can be safely removed entirely which is good news! The sound board and the bridge can now be cleaned up with relative ease.
The not so good news is that I now need to figure out how to prevent squeeze out from flooding the slot area when I reattach the bridge.
On it goes...*sigh*
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
The saddle slot is part of the bridge.
You might find the pickup is crap if you lay it on the body directly.
You might find the pickup is crap if you lay it on the body directly.
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
'Been thinking a lot about that too Damian.Westbone wrote:Do you reckon after all this it's gonna get a belly after a little while. Like it had??
The answer is, it most likely will!
Unless I figure some way to strengthen the fan bracing.
The bridge area is currently quite flat but there is still a hump behind it.
I'm hoping a clamping arrangement which pulls the top down together with perhaps something tying in the braces at right angles may do it.
The space to work inside this thing is severly restricted so normal approaches are mostly un-doable. I really need the action of a bridge doctor here but I'm not spending that kind of money of this guitar, and it would have to be modified in any event.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Glue it, screw it, sell it.
Last edited by Westbone on Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Right. But hey, the pick up is crap anyway!Westbone wrote:The saddle slot is part of the bridge.
You might find the pickup is crap if you lay it on the body directly.
I'll have to replace the slot floor anyway as noted above so a wood fill would make sense in this regard also.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Like I say if the base for the pickup/saddle is not 100% flat you will loose all sound from some strings.
I've had experience of this.
I've had experience of this.
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Ditto.Westbone wrote:Like I say if the base for the pickup/saddle is not 100% flat you will loose all sound from some strings.
I've had experience of this.
But I've had more trouble with the soft pickup strips like NanoFlex than with these strip-inside-metal-channel types.
They're not the best sounding but they cradle the saddle well and are fairly stable.
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
Re: Ovation Celebrity CC28 for Repair
Even if I can get this to a playable and presentable condition, I don't know if this would ultimately have much resale value anyway.Westbone wrote:Glue it, screw it, sell it.
As I said at the beginning of this adventure, the objective was not to make money on it but gain a little more experience and have some fun.
If it turns out OK, it will either be a "beater" to have around for impromptu strummin' or for experimenting with alternate tunings, or I may just give it to my son who's been interested in playing some acoustic lately. He has limited space at his condo and is a less than tidy fellow so it'll suit him fine.
I'd love to Damian, but there hasn't been anything locally for at least 2 years. And no money to buy from "afar".Buy another Westone..
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
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Worse than Poo on a Diaper!
I've started to remove the old epoxy from both the bridge and the sound board. . .
AR-R-G-G-G-H_H!
(Tension reliever. Had to be done) *ahem*
The bridge wasn't too difficult because there was, strangely, so little glue on it to begin with.
But the sound board was a whole 'nuther thing:
There is a miserably hard edge of glue, like a dam, along the back edge, which is what my knife was originally hitting in my earliest attempts at bridge removal.
While scraping, the blade caught a ragged edge and chipped out a piece of the original finish. That's it sitting above the anchor holes.
And man, is it THICK!!
I always knew Ovation tops were ridiculously thick but geez loueeze . . .
After a hour or so of scraping with a blade, followed by coarse sandpaper here's where I'm at:
The glue remnant is pretty leveled but trying to make a dent in that finish?! It's about enough to bring this grown man to tears!
Titebond?
I was starting to think that removing the finish to bare wood and doing a proper Titebond connection was ultimately the best way to go.
That would also give me a long open time in order to set the clamping properly (remember the back is round and the guitar can roll around).
But honestly, facing this finish is a nightmare!
To remove it means I'll need to invest in a set of small chisels which I don't really want to do. Even then, the process of removing it is tedious and time consuming as hell. And I run the risk of chip out, outside the bridge area.
Epoxy?
This was my original plan, and of course the way Ovation, um, glues its bridges, sort of.
The reason the bridge failed was that it wasn't done properly in the first place.
Interestingly, the epoxy stuck just fine to the finish. It was the bridge surface which pulled away. That indicates to me that the wood was not prepped correctly, or at all. The glue residue was just a light smear.
I think I'm going to go with my original plan.
My main concern is that I only have at best, 6 minutes of open time to work with. If something goes wrong there's no going back and I'm well and truly buggered! *sigh*
AR-R-G-G-G-H_H!
(Tension reliever. Had to be done) *ahem*
The bridge wasn't too difficult because there was, strangely, so little glue on it to begin with.
But the sound board was a whole 'nuther thing:
There is a miserably hard edge of glue, like a dam, along the back edge, which is what my knife was originally hitting in my earliest attempts at bridge removal.
While scraping, the blade caught a ragged edge and chipped out a piece of the original finish. That's it sitting above the anchor holes.
And man, is it THICK!!
I always knew Ovation tops were ridiculously thick but geez loueeze . . .
After a hour or so of scraping with a blade, followed by coarse sandpaper here's where I'm at:
The glue remnant is pretty leveled but trying to make a dent in that finish?! It's about enough to bring this grown man to tears!
next step? Dunno.
Titebond?
I was starting to think that removing the finish to bare wood and doing a proper Titebond connection was ultimately the best way to go.
That would also give me a long open time in order to set the clamping properly (remember the back is round and the guitar can roll around).
But honestly, facing this finish is a nightmare!
To remove it means I'll need to invest in a set of small chisels which I don't really want to do. Even then, the process of removing it is tedious and time consuming as hell. And I run the risk of chip out, outside the bridge area.
Epoxy?
This was my original plan, and of course the way Ovation, um, glues its bridges, sort of.
The reason the bridge failed was that it wasn't done properly in the first place.
Interestingly, the epoxy stuck just fine to the finish. It was the bridge surface which pulled away. That indicates to me that the wood was not prepped correctly, or at all. The glue residue was just a light smear.
I think I'm going to go with my original plan.
My main concern is that I only have at best, 6 minutes of open time to work with. If something goes wrong there's no going back and I'm well and truly buggered! *sigh*
_________________
"A little song. A little dance. A little seltzer down your pants." -Chuckles the Clown
GUITARS : https://legend.barryeames.com
MUSIC/PIX/VIDEOS: https://getback.barryeames.com (including Spectrum ST)
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