good info on matsomoku etc built guitars

has anyone read the book about the history of squier guitars, it contains alot of very interesting history on what went on in japan, not only with squier but all the guitar manufacturers. it is a very good read, and very informative. the part i like the most is where fender first approached greco about making guitars for them, as the fakes were so good technically they were already making them. fender thought this would be humbling to them. but the resopnse from the japanese was something to the tune of "why should we? we will sink your company in 2-4 years!" very funny, but it shows they had their eye on the ball.

would you like to share the title of the book you are talking about :?:

Squier Electrics: Thirty Years Of Fenders Budget GUITAR Brand by Tony Bacon...incredible read! and nice illustrations

I've got his coffee table oversized read. Called the Ultimate Guitar Book I think. He is a good researcher and this Squier book will be the same I'm sure.

are you from scotland?

Our beloved Ice is categorically not a Scot, and is in fact from Minnesota. I think he chooses the flag of St Andrew in his avatar just be perverse....

...perverse in a good way, you mean...

Yes I am a Minnesotan by way of location but a hairy-arsed Scot at heart...

Even though I am 100% Kraut back at least 8 generations on both sides of the family.

Is that sideways enough for everybody?

He is indeed a Scot as I adopted him last year. I wanted to free him from the shackles of his Germanic ancestry.

Hoax

well what i am wondering about is how on earth he stays sober long enough to read and type!

It's a gift.

christoyoyo wrote:well what i am wondering about is how on earth he stays sober long enough to read and type!

All you need is that lethal combination of the 2 attributes I've have been blessed with ( see my sig for the details ) in addition to years and years of practice.

Kids, do not try this at home as I AM an expert... as my bff hoax (on my left) will attest to.

My Tony Bacon guitar book, which is very good BTW...

Mmm, bacon.

What you posted rings so true to what I had heard when I spoke to one of the top guys at Fender in the 1980s. This is also corroborated by info given in an interview with a lawyer involved in the "Lawsuit" against Mats,Greco etc etc
The bottom line,imho is Fender ceased to make decent guitars gradually in 1965 when CBS bought them and eventually made a standardized form of junk by the late 1970s. I know, my 1976 came with a broken pickup.
Meanwhile Mats and others reverse engineered the guitars they studied and by 1976 had some fine guitars in production. My 1976 Ibanez Destroyer is equally as good as any of the late 1950s Explorers its based on (I have played both). They go for 200,000 USD, my Ibanez was purchased by me for 475 in 1986.
I am glad Tony Bacon has done the research so everyone can get the facts. And here at this forum, its common knowledge that Matsomuko has made many great instruments. But to others, this is news.
And yes, I play a Squier Strat on gigs all the time...works great!!!!!!!
GtrGeorge

GtrGeorge! wrote:...an interview with a lawyer involved in the "Lawsuit" against Mats,Greco etc etc...

Sorry George, but every time I see a reference like this I feel compelled to try and correct this myth.

There never was a lawsuit. There was a legal letter from Norlin (owner of Gibson at the time) to Hoshino Gakki (owners of the Ibanez brand among others) which was in essence, a "cease and desist" warning. Norlin's complaint was over the copyright infringement of the "open book/moustache" headstock design used by Gibson. Hoshino complied, and the other Japanese manufacturers simply fell in line behind them. Matsumoku was never involved, neither was any other "Gakki".

As a further punctuation, MIJ guitars were not perfect replicas since they were/are built on Metric measurement. Parts are not interchangeable with their original US made 'inspiration'.

/end rant/

ok...well then.
I wasnt trying to provoke anything. I was just agreeing whole heartedly, that's all.
Sometimes, its this kinda thing that makes me NOT want to share information it took me years to get.....and I just thought it would be ok to agree with somebody without getting into tremendous amounts of details. Specifically, I put the term Lawsuit in quotes because it was something like a lawsuit..but not quite. And fwiw, even parties unnamed in the Norlin letter very likely took heed of the action and changed their outlook about what they would produce next.
You may be right, Barry...and that's good....but being pedantic is not always a way to encourage people to share.

ummm my 2 cents wotrh is that the HARDWARE was on the metric system... i.e screws etc, anything metallic. but the thickness of the bodies, neck radius etc were identical

GtrGeorge! wrote:...I wasnt trying to provoke anything...

I know George, neither was I.

being pedantic is not always a way to encourage people to share.

Encouraging the sharing of incorrect information as fact serves no good purpose. It just perpetuates inaccuracies and myths. If you're going to publish "facts" to the world in a public forum (and this is a globally accessed site) you need to be as sure as possible of the validity of that information.

If you're presenting something as opinion or conjecture or a fuzzy recollection, fair enough. But I will challenge you (as will others here will me-see the post above this one for example) if something stated as a factual reference is off base or incorrect.

Understand that this is not a personal attack on you George. The senior members here try mightily to keep the information that we share as clean and correct as possible. There is so much wrong and fabricated information on the Internet presented by self styled "experts" that it does seem like peeing into the wind in order to change it.

But this is the home of the real Westone experts, including the principal designer of the instruments. So we do have an obligation to try and keep the record straight, at least in our little corner of the world, eh?

christoyoyo wrote:ummm my 2 cents wotrh is that the HARDWARE was on the metric system... i.e screws etc, anything metallic. but the thickness of the bodies, neck radius etc were identical

That might be problematic too christo. Ever seen a "genuine" perfectly reproduced bolt-on neck Les Paul?

Tony Bacon & Paul Day do some excellent books.
They also did a Fender book and these two.
These are smaller at 10"x8" than The Ultimate Guitar book.

One of the reasons why Fender were turning out 'junk' in the late 70's early 80's was that there router templates were wearing out.
Also the timbers are now getting more expensive and heavier timbers, 2nd. rate where used but still good wood.

The necks socket became a looser fit due to the templates loosing a tho. or such. There was no real investment.
Also on maple boards they just laquered over the frets to keep costs down, not a good idea.

That's one of the reasons why the Japs were catching up, they had newer machinery and could produce a better standard product.

Fender had to retool.

Barry,
I won't waste your time anymore..If I can help it. I won't waste your time with conversations I have had with the top people at Fender,Gibson,Peavey an artists such as Pink Floyd,The Who,Led Zeppelin etc
GtrGeorge

GtrGeorge! wrote:Barry,
I won't waste your time anymore..If I can help it. I won't waste your time with conversations I have had with the top people at Fender,Gibson,Peavey an artists such as Pink Floyd,The Who,Led Zeppelin etc
GtrGeorge

George, we like the info, keep it coming man!

For crying out loud George, I don't know how much plainer I can be. This is not a personal attack on you or your comments about Fender. I believe you if you say you've had all these wonderful contacts in your experience.

My response was triggered by your unreferenced "lawyer" source, the non-existant lawsuit, and particularly, casually lumping Matsumoku in with it all. That's not correct. Period. And I was very clear in citing your words. If you can't accept that, and want to have a hissy fit, well...not much I can do about that.

We value what all members bring to the Forums, and we all benefit for their experiences. Your stories are welcome, but you cannot make blanket statements like the above and not expect to be challenged.

Barry wrote:

christoyoyo wrote:ummm my 2 cents wotrh is that the HARDWARE was on the metric system... i.e screws etc, anything metallic. but the thickness of the bodies, neck radius etc were identical

That might be problematic too christo. Ever seen a "genuine" perfectly reproduced bolt-on neck Les Paul?

barry i really dont understand that comment at all...

I simply meant that many LP versions out of Japan (even Mats) were bolt-on's, hence not exact copies of Gibsons which are set necks.

i was refering to the fenders they copied, the book is about squiers not epiphones. the title is a dead giveaway

i think most of us are aware a "les paul" is a set neck

No need to be sarcastic or snarky.
You asked. I answered, in the context of "lawsuit" guitars not Fender specifically.

umm yeah, but the book wasn't about thoese, it was fender specifically.

OK whose house is the naughty chair at these days. I can see it being needed soon

I'm seeing a lot of uncharacteristic sniping from all angles in this thread. Come on guys, you're better than this. One of the great things about this forum is (usually) the mutual respect. Time to let this thread die?

Some days I just despair. Happy New Year Christo!

WHAATTT? SORRY, I'M STILL POLISHING MY HALO...DID I MISS SOMETHING?

Caps lock fail, enough already, let's all agree that we're all right.

westcoaster wrote:Caps lock fail, enough already, let's all agree that we're all right.

Sheesh.... okay, FINE! I was about to lower the boom but I shall refrain from doing so then...











...and just when I had 'em right where I wanted 'em, too...

I like guitars

"victimitus" read my other responses, on this site to the same. "b" and how many have been "put off" by ummm who. i will back myself up if you wish. but if you stand to correct others, stand to be corrected yourself... this started off with a nice conversation, only one started to sour it, it was not me, it was not gtrgeorge... i love guitars too sarcaster!

Awwwww, hey you two....



There! The good Doctor has spoken... IT'S DONE!!!

Now that I, of all people have become the voice of reason in this thread, (yes Barry, that is scary) can we all just take 3 deep breaths, join hand and sing kumbaya now or something? BroHugs... anything?

Lock it?

corsair wrote:Lock it?

Yeah

Its boring and puerile.

Hoax

ok, good enough, a apolagise for my part sincerely. and to end on what i hope will be seen as a humorous note to barry.....