Concorde I: Any way to laterally adjust the bridge saddles?

My Concorde's B and high E string are stretched against the adjusting set screws nearest the center of my guitar. It looks as if I were to shift the saddle positions up (closer to centerline) the strings would then lay in a better position. It doesn't appear that adjustment is possible... or is it?

Or am I just being a bit anal??

Not sure what you're describing. Sounds like you don't have the strings seated properly in the saddles.
Is your bridge like mine?



Pix would help, eh?

Give us a picture.

The only bridge I know of that has a string spacing adjustment is the Kahler Pro, which will accommodate different neck/nut widths.

Some bridges have saddles with differently spaced intonation screws - the intonation screw that sets the string length is sometimes in the middle of the saddle, sometimes on one end of the saddle or the other. So some of the saddles look offset in relation to their intonation screw. If your bridge is one of these, then it may be possible that a previous owner disassembled the bridge and did not assemble the saddles back into their correct locations. It is also possible that your saddles are not original to the bridge.

Give us a picture.

Your wish is my command....

Well it's obvious that the B and E saddles are not centred over the string through holes in the bridge. The question is "why?".
Assuming the bridge is original, then the saddles are suspect. I see some deep scoring indicating that these are likely transplants, likely from a Strat which are too wide. What you're seeing is the accumulated displacement towards the treble side caused by the higher tension from the bass strings. The bottom strings line up OK but nudge the lighter tensioned saddles over.

You didn't mention how the strings track up the neck. Is the E string close to the edge of the fretboard?

Yep, those are Concord I saddles allright.
Seems like you've a ton of space between them, just slacken your strings off and reposition them.

Just wondering, do the holes in the base plate that the strings pass through line up with the centreline of each saddle?

It might be just the angle of the photo but the ends of the adjustment screws don't seem to line up with the holes. It looks they're are being forced apart, especially on the high and low 'E' strings.

DAN.

Does it hold tune??

Not so well holding tune. At first I was willing to believe it was the new strings conditioning themselves but not any more. The machineheads seem to be very solid to me so I do not think there is any slippage on that end. I am going to try slackening everything a bit and also lower the action too. I think some of the spacing you are seeing is due to how high the adjusting screws have been set by the previous owner. Thanks everyone for all the input so far. Will update soon after attempting the suggestions
.

Ah, you didn't mention that.
You might double check that the saddle heights are adjusted to follow the curve of the fretboard, and not flat across (or worse).
Sounds like they may not be. If the set screws are, um, set incorrectly, that could be pushing the saddles off-centre of the holes too.

When set up properly this thing should play like there are no strings on the guitar!

Is that a bit of cheese in your bottom E saddle height screw?

Westbone wrote:Is that a bit of cheese in your bottom E saddle height screw?

Rather nasty cheese indeed!! Needed a darning needle to pick it all out. It appears that these saddles have been swapped around somewhat as well. The screws which adjust for distance to and fro from the bridge pickup are two different lengths. Any opinion on whether the shorter or longer length should be used where? Currently the shorter lengths are being used on the low E, A & G.

In any case everything is getting a good scrub as I am down there anyway. Next question is what is the best method for cleaning the pickup poles themselves as they are gaining some tarnish??

Back to the q-tips.

I wonder if the string block/plate has been changed.
Those saddles are never going to line up with those holes,


What sort of cheese did it taste like

fish wrote:

What sort of cheese did it taste like

Wensleydale???

Anyway I gave it all a good scrub and set the height barely above the bridge plate. All seems to have improved by about 300 %.

I was able to get a better "center" on the entire gang. It appears impossible to center each exactly as the width if the saddles and spacing of the thru holes will not allow it. I think I got fairly close however.

Many thanks for all the experienced voices chiming in. It does feel significantly smoother and faster now and tone even seems more homogeneous.

I think if the saddles themselves were about a sixteenth narrower each (sorry, I meant 1.5mm) I could get each one centered exactly with a bit of space between each as well. I will get some pics up shortly.

[quote="Iceman"]

fish wrote:

What sort of cheese did it taste like

Wensleydale???
I think if the saddles themselves were about a sixteenth narrower each (sorry, I meant 1.5mm)

Mmmm.... I like Wensleydale, wouldn't have thought you'd get it in Minnesota, ah, you've been Googling.

A 1/16th's alright by me, I still measure in old money

So whats been changed the saddles or the plate :?:

Never had Wensleydale by it is a favourite of my favorite claymation character .

I think neither has been changed but if I could get my stinkin' Photobucket account working I'da had snapshots for you to judge by now.........aaaaarrrrrrrgggggghh!!

Oh, Wallis, Didn't think you had him in Minnesota either. Now then, Wallis would get gromit to fix your Concord, no truble.

He may even try the pic uploader on the site, works for me. :bball:

Looking at Barry's Concord 1 & the pics on the Westone info site, it would seem you have the wrong saddles

okey dokey...... photos finally


the low side


the high side


and one for Barry. This is my Squier Strat circa 1989 or 1990


And now for my next trick watch as I pull this rabbit from my hat.

Looked back on Barry's axe and there is obviously a difference. I am assuming that yours are original, right Barry?


Never you mind. I checked Westone.info and I am now assumimg that yours is a Concorde II, correct?

fish wrote:...Looking at Barry's Concord 1 & the pics on the Westone info site, it would seem you have the wrong saddles

Actually, mine's a Concord II...but the comment I first made about there apparently being the wrong saddles seems to hold. Although much better looking after the cleanup, the strings are still being yanked to the side and do not line up.

Hey, that looks better Ice & I guess you could live with it like that but you need to whip that bridge off & get the file out, or take it down to a machine shop, wouldn't take much to line the saddles up, short of finding the right one's

Your Squire bridge looks like a Goth, the same as my Cutlass, had fun setting the saddles up on it the other day

These are plated somewhat (chrome?) and I would not want to mess that much with them. It had crossed my mind to make a secret government project out of fashioning some new ones at work (I am a machinist by trade). I was thinking about using titanium just for fun but am unaware of the tonal property of that material. Maybe CPM-10V or a 400 series stainless?

Iceman wrote:These are plated somewhat (chrome?) and I would not want to mess that much with them. It had crossed my mind to make a secret government project out of fashioning some new ones at work (I am a machinist by trade). I was thinking about using titanium just for fun but am unaware of the tonal property of that material. Maybe CPM-10V or a 400 series stainless?

Machinist, now that's useful, Stainless would be ideal, I think there could be a lot of bull talked about tone materials here & there. If you get onto acoustic soundboards made from say, AAA solid Spruce there's a point but saddles, I doubt it.

As for damaging the chrome if you were to mod your saddles, you'd only have to face the inside, side faces. If you were able hold & set them up on a small surface grinder & lick off a few thou or so, I doubt you'd damage the chrome on the top faces, by the time they were sitting together on the bridge with a bit of polish on they'd be fine

I don't think there is much point in modding the existing saddles, it looks like they are probably made from cast white metal. There are plenty of options out there for replacements, you just need to know the string spacing.

As for titanium, this company makes loads of parts out of the stuff - KTS Musical Products Inc.

Also found THESE on WD Music's U.K. site, they're KTS made but don't appear on they're own site, check out the price! If you have the time you could make something very similar to these (Nudge nudge, wink wink ). The outside shape would be quick and easy to make, the only problem I can see would be around the string seating area, might have to hand finish to get the right angle for the strings to pass over?

DAN.

[quote="DuoFuzz"]I don't think there is much point in modding the existing saddles, it looks like they are probably made from cast white metal. There are plenty of options out there for replacements, you just need to know the string spacing.

With respect DuoFuzz, carn't see the saddles being Die Cast/Mazak/White Metal/Pot Metal, in that application the thread wouldn't have lasted 5 minuets, if they're not brass they will be steel.

If Ice is going to make new ones, there's nothing wrong with Titanium but Stainless will look closer to chrome when polished.

Oh, we always have time for this Duo

Definitely not cheap metal but they do look die cast almost. If titanium has been used by others I am intrigued. Thanks for the links, I will check into them straightaway. As far as reproducing them there is nothing like a CMM for reverse engineering and all sorts of shapes can be made with EDM as long as it conducts electricity.

Don't wait up boys, I'm going in.

I'm old school CNC & Spark erosion, is EDM spark erosion/wire erosion :?: Once you've knocked up your little bits & pieces, do you think the war department would mind you sorting out some Swiftlock Tailpieces for the guys on here with the Prestige, Rainbow & Thunder models that have them, or would that be asking too much

CEDM (conventional) and WEDM (wire). Also laser marking, Swiss turning, VMC, HMC. If you need code and Mastercam posts for it we are good to go. The owner of the shop I am employed at is a real gem and I have one sort of job or another in the way of "government work" usually cooking.

If you have a print, part, prototype or cadfile it's "Katie...... bar the door"!!

Yeah sorry, probably not white metal but definitely an alloy, zinc or Mazak, the same stuff they make cheap trem blocks out of. Guarantee they're not steel.

EDM is a great way to go, I wasn't thinking that big! Could use CNC milling to machine the slot but that needs programming and a small 3mm dia ball nosed slot drill to make a nice radiused break angle for the string.

I suppose it all depends on how many toys you have in your machine shop and how much "free" time you have to play in it!

DAN.

...well ma grand daddy always said, "boy, if ya' gonna be a bear...... be a grizzly"

Think big Duo, think big.

Come over to the dark side.................. we have cookies!

Just as a recap for those not following this serpentine thread, are you going to manufacture some bits, Fish?? That would be very cool.....

To get back on track.
Here's a concord I's saddles.

By sunbeamflash at 2011-03-21

By sunbeamflash at 2011-03-21

By sunbeamflash at 2011-03-21
It's an optical dilusion, all the holes line up fine.
Iceman take some better shots and stop eating cheese

corsair wrote:Just as a recap for those not following this serpentine thread, are you going to manufacture some bits, Fish?? That would be very cool.....

And finally......

Yes that would be cool, Corsair but when I said old school I meant the 1970's, only used spark erosion for sparking out the odd broken tap or stud since then & like everything, its moved on, re the question about EDM.


I've made enquiry's about loss wax casting tailpieces, as I said in an earlier Serpentine thread, a small batch would be expensive unless a friendly Westone guitar playing foundry or machine shop owner, & as DuoFuzz said, with the right toys & spare capacity was prepared to do a favour. You never know who's out there & Iceman could just be that man or know a man that dose.

Now no home should be without one of these to make a casting/CNC pattern, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggvzcGdZsTc

My Prestige tailpiece has cleaned up alright, the bridge is not quit so good but there's no strength issue with the bridge, just cosmetic, my Prestige bits & pieces are at the platters right now. I have a small home workshop with a limited amount of toys, where turning the odd bush for my cars is no problem & if push came to shove, with a bit of milling, a lot of hand shaping & finishing I could make a tailpiece for myself should I ever need too. Since Westbone mentioned the issues with the Swiftlock tailpieces to me, it seamed worth a look around to see what could be done & still dose.

I'm amazed the effect cheese has Westbone, reckon Iceman's been taking the proverbial :?:

We would not have access to a laser inferometer as you see in that link but our VMC's use similar laser technology to maintain real time positioning as we cut parts at our shop. As a point of reference for you folks following at home the limits of my capabilities here would be holes approaching .005" finished size, slots about the same, our VMC's can run endmills down to about .016" and we laser mark parts small enough to require a stereo scope to read it properly. I have no doubt I could fashion whatever you guys may be looking for. The question really is a matter of time and what sort of materials or finishes would be reckoned with.

Westbone is correct in his assessment as well. The saddles are much improved once I realized what I had not been seeing. The next step now is to get those strings following the fretboard radius properly as Barry correctly suggested.

It did get me thinking along the lines of improving/modifying what is already there. As this particular axe seems to have started down the road towards a relic I would be pursuing a mod mostly as an exercise just to see if I can and have not decided even if I should.

As far as the rest of the tangent this thread went off on I have no problem looking at any project work anyone wants to run by me or involve me in. I'd rather use the talents I've been blessed with than squander them, and if that allows me to help a fella get one of their gals singing right ( or better) again, count me in.

Iceman wrote:We would not have access to a laser inferometer as you see in that link but our VMC's use similar laser technology to maintain real time positioning as we cut parts at our shop. As a point of reference for you folks following at home the limits of my capabilities here would be holes approaching .005" finished size, slots about the same, our VMC's can run endmills down to about .016" and we laser mark parts small enough to require a stereo scope to read it properly. I have no doubt I could fashion whatever you guys may be looking for. The question really is a matter of time and what sort of materials or finishes would be reckoned with.

Now that's cool titanium please, or aluminum, brass would be alright. As for finish, polished or just ready for polishing would be fine, as they were gold or chrome plated & X350MA were black enamel, finish would be best left to who ever wanted them.

Anyone have a Swiftlock Tailpiece & may be a Azusa Bridge to use as a pattern, so long as it was all there it wouldn't mater if it was broken