Bendmaster FT drop-in replacement?

Im considering buying a spectrum sx without the trem, a bit tatty but could be a bargain.....now, is there any trem out there that will just drop in? 2 hours till auction end.....'cmon fellas...help a guy out.

ok so in another post, forum member Rik found this
http://www.guitarfetish.com/Black-Floyd-Rose-Fastloader-Locking-Tremolo-System_p_110.html

but apparently I will have to alter the distance between nut and saddles.....a job too big maybe.....thoughts?

nevermind.....I was busy reading about Everton transfer targets and missed the auction end having made no bid!

Sgt. Vimes wrote:nevermind.....I was busy reading about Everton transfer targets and missed the auction end having made no bid!

Here's your sign...

Hi Pete,

Do you think the intonation wont be obtainable? I am putting in a Floyd in my Spektrum FX.



VP

check this post out pete

http://forum.westoneguitars.net/t2360-possible-ft-bridge-replacement?highlight=bendmaster+ft

Just a note of interest to you two. I just ordered one of these for my wife's Spectrum I and should be installing it sometime in the next week or so.

@V.P. -- If you want to hold off for a little bit longer I will get you a full report...

@Sgt.V. -- I hadn't heard how much you your new sign yet...

I thought I had missed the joke there Steve, but the picture just showed up now!

remember last season's last game? 3-1

Iceman wrote:Just a note of interest to you two. I just ordered one of these for my wife's Spectrum I and should be installing it sometime in the next week or so.

@V.P. -- If you want to hold off for a little bit longer I will get you a full report...

@Sgt.V. -- I hadn't heard how much you your new sign yet...

Okay great, what guitar are you putting it in?



VP

Victory Pete wrote:

Iceman wrote:Just a note of interest to you two. I just ordered one of these for my wife's Spectrum I and should be installing it sometime in the next week or so.

@V.P. -- If you want to hold off for a little bit longer I will get you a full report.

Okay great, what guitar are you putting it in?

VP

The exact guitar in the archives here...

http://www.westoneguitars.net/guitars/spectrum-series/spectrum-i-series/

Look to the 4th variant down the listing. It is the WE1400cs you see pictured as an example. While it is a newer MIK build than the ones you two are discussing the post spacing and scale distance is the same and should suffice to allay your concerns, VP.

Iceman wrote:

Victory Pete wrote:

Okay great, what guitar are you putting it in?

VP

The exact guitar in the archives here...


Look to the 4th variant down the listing. It is the WE1400cs you see pictured as an example. While it is a newer MIK build than the ones you two are discussing the post spacing and scale distance is the same and should suffice to allay your concerns, VP.

Okay thanks, I just hope the geometry of the back routing is the same. That is what is stopping me from putting in the Floyd I have modified a bit.



VP

I will get you complete calipered measurements when I do the upgrade then.

Iceman wrote:I will get you complete calipered measurements when I do the upgrade then.

Terriffic, I am currently sidetracked with looking into getting a Bigsby for 1 of my Les Pauls. They make adapter plates now so you dont have to drill any new holes.



VP

Okay Pete, I did find time today to restring my FX and while doing so I got some measurements and pics taken of the original BMFT and the new Floyd "Fastloader" I picked up side by side.

The pics I am still sorting out and will add later but the short version is that YES that Fastloader will drop in and work as is with no modification needed. The one difference is in the base plate size of the two, with the Fastloader you will see about an eighth to 3/16 of an inch of the routed area visible at the bottom of the opening. The Fastloader does not sit as flush to the body as the FT does, think of it more as a mini version of a Bendmaster Deluxe as far as how high the fine tuners sit up off the body. The Fastloader also has the benefit of true knife edges on the arcs that sit in the post recess cuts, the FT has cut edges only from the underside flat to the top surface of the plate, similar to a hollow ground knife.

The thru routing on my FX measured 26mm deep by 76.8 mm wide. The post spacing is just a hair under 74mm center to center.

Here is a link to the pictures Pete. Simpler than pasting only some of them here.

https://s1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/tarsava/Spectrum%20FX/

The sustain block on the BMFT is huge in comparison to the Fastloader. While I did not actually waste a set of strings on the Fastloader by installing and tuning it, I did check the approximate distance from the saddles as they sat on each and that Fastloader looked to have more than enough intonation adjustment to my eyes.

Hope this has helped somewhat...

Iceman wrote:Here is a link to the pictures Pete. Simpler than pasting only some of them here.



The sustain block on the BMFT is huge in comparison to the Fastloader. While I did not actually waste a set of strings on the Fastloader by installing and tuning it, I did check the approximate distance from the saddles as they sat on each and that Fastloader looked to have more than enough intonation adjustment to my eyes.

Hope this has helped somewhat...

Thanks for the information, I seem to need a password to open your photos.



VP

Victory Pete wrote:

Thanks for the information, I seem to need a password to open your photos.

VP

Shoot that's right. Sorry about that!...

Use x199ivory and you should get in.

The frets were about as brown as the fretboard so some of the pics are showing what 15 minutes of elbow grease, diluted Murphy Oil Soap and #0000 steel wool can do.

Iceman wrote:

Victory Pete wrote:

Thanks for the information, I seem to need a password to open your photos.

VP

Shoot that's right. Sorry about that!...

Use x199ivory and you should get in.

The frets were about as brown as the fretboard so some of the pics are showing what 15 minutes of elbow grease, diluted Murphy Oil Soap and #0000 steel wool can do.

Thanks, I am a bit concerned about the less mass from the smaller block. It seems that would reduce sustain and tone. Can anyone comment on how it sounds compared to the original?



VP

Gee.... That's a big difference in mass, eh; gotta make a difference somewhere, somehow!

Mmmmmmmmmm.... Spectrum....... yummy...... John like.....

Interesting...........

Ice, you stripped it all down and didn't even try it with strings????

Just wondering if the springs will hook in as it's a good bit shorter and the intonation?

The difference in mass could, in theory, cause a reduction in the sustain. Uncle Mats built it this way for a reason (some might argue "over built" it.)

But, there must be a reason why "modern" blocks are smaller and lighter, aside from cost considerations. Perhaps the chaps here with greater knowledge of metals than I can comment better, but I would submit that perhaps the actual design, or the metal being used, is better at resonating or amplifying the strings' vibration? In other words use of sonic computer analysis and better metallurgy now triumphs over sheer brute mass?

Seems a small sacrifice to pay for replacing an otherwise buggered up part and allowing this wonderful guitar to play once again.

Barry wrote:The difference in mass could, in theory, cause a reduction in the sustain. Uncle Mats built it this way for a reason (some might argue "over built" it.)

But, there must be a reason why "modern" blocks are smaller and lighter, aside from cost considerations. Perhaps the chaps here with greater knowledge of metals than I can comment better, but I would submit that perhaps the actual design, or the metal being used, is better at resonating or amplifying the strings' vibration? In other words use of sonic computer analysis and better metallurgy now triumphs over sheer brute mass?

Seems a small sacrifice to pay for replacing an otherwise buggered up part and allowing this wonderful guitar to play once again.

Lack of sustain is not a "Small Sacrifice".
The added mass dampens any wasted energy that would otherwise allow the strings to sustain. Floating trems are a massive sustain killer to begin with because of the springs themselves, they actually vibrated with the strings and dissapates energy resulting in loss of tone and sustain. Check this out, this is what I would call a "Modern and Improved" trem: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/floyd-rose-titanium-tremolo-bridge-kit-with-r2-nut?src=3WWRWXGP


VP

Victory Pete wrote:Lack of sustain is not a "Small Sacrifice"...

Maybe I should have said reduced sustain, and that's debatable as I've argued. Point being, compared to none at all, (i.e. an unplayable guitar) it's a very workable fix.

Barry wrote:

Victory Pete wrote:Lack of sustain is not a "Small Sacrifice"...

Maybe I should have said reduced sustain, and that's debatable as I've argued. Point being, compared to none at all, (i.e. an unplayable guitar) it's a very workable fix.

You did say "reduction in the sustain", which to me is "lack of sustain". I tend to do it right the first time or I dont do it at all. It has been 15 years since I have played the guitar, there is no reason to rush into a compromised installation.



VP

Victory Pete wrote:...It has been 15 years since I have played the guitar, there is no reason to rush into a compromised installation.

Hey, it's your guitar and your time. You can intellectualize the hell out of these things and get nowhere, or just get on with it. Personally, I'd rather be playing than sitting around for 15 years.

BTW thanks for the pictures and the effort Steve!

And on the issue of string vibration, I've referenced this little trick here before (somewhere) but for those who haven't come across it:
Spring Silencing Trick

Barry wrote:

Victory Pete wrote:...It has been 15 years since I have played the guitar, there is no reason to rush into a compromised installation.

Hey, it's your guitar and your time. You can intellectualize the hell out of these things and get nowhere, or just get on with it. Personally, I'd rather be playing than sitting around for 15 years.

BTW thanks for the pictures and the effort Steve!

And on the issue of string vibration, I've referenced this little trick here before (somewhere) but for those who haven't come across it:
Spring Silencing Trick

Believe me, I have not been getting "Nowhere". What makes you think I have been "Sitting around for 15 years"? Using my brain in situations like this has helped my business grow from a hobby to a busy, efficient shop. http://www.victoryguitar.com/victoryguitar/index.html Also my fleet of 12 guitars has kept me satisfied musically. That is a clever idea that guy had in the video but that was not the point I was making, the springs vibrate with the strings removing some of the kinetic energy from them thereby reducing sustain substantially. Please make no assumptions about me.

VP

I don't know why you're being so argumentative VP. Sorry if you're offended by anything said. We're all attempting to help you out but you appear to want to argue and dispute everything.

I simply made a response based on your statement. I'm not assuming a damn thing about you other than the way in which you have presented yourself in these forums. You are not the only one here who works in a shop, or does extensive repairs, or has a vast knowledge and experience, or has a brain, or indeed, a fleet of guitars. Let's not be so arrogant about that eh?

I repeat, you can intellectualize the hell out of these things or get on with it.

Barry wrote:I don't know why you're being so argumentative VP. Sorry if you're offended by anything said. We're all attempting to help you out but you appear to want to argue and dispute everything.

I simply made a response based on your statement. I'm not assuming a damn thing about you other than the way in which you have presented yourself in these forums. You are not the only one here who works in a shop, or does extensive repairs, or has a vast knowledge and experience, or has a brain, or indeed, a fleet of guitars. Let's not be so arrogant about that eh?

I repeat, you can intellectualize the hell out of these things or get on with it.

You seem to be the only one who is in fact, not helping, but critising my statements, opinions and methods. My first impression of you seems to have been quite accurate. here is your first post in regard to my inquiry about this replacement bridge.

Barry wrote:We believe forum member Rick, and others subsequently, when he says it "dropped right in" and it works! It literally drops into the existing routing. Honestly, what more "confirmation" could you possibly need?

We even offer it on our information web site: LINK

A FR is not the answer as everyone who has tried it has discovered. This GFS is.

Would like to 'physically' try that bridge.

It does appear in your photos that the intonation would be a slight bit out Ice. You could shim up the neck to create a longer distance between the 12th fret and the saddles. Useless in your case as it's a set neck. on the 'ivory'

The bridge on your WE 1400cs is exactly the same as the Encore bridges I mention somewhere.

It would have been a good idea to set it up and see what the score is.

Barry, Pete. Stop getting your knickers in a twist...

Yer right Damian. Just not worth it.

Let's all just take an deep breath and move on, eh?!

The sustain thing is, to my mind as someone who's played professionally for many years, subjective anyway; at stage volumes and with FX in the mix, I defy anyone to tell the difference in sustain rates between guitars so equipped.

Personally, I think the whole argument is some sort of guitar snobbery....

corsair wrote:Let's all just take an deep breath and move on, eh?!

The sustain thing is, to my mind as someone who's played professionally for many years, subjective anyway; at stage volumes and with FX in the mix, I defy anyone to tell the difference in sustain rates between guitars so equipped.

Personally, I think the whole argument is some sort of guitar snobbery....

When I got my first stopbar tunematic equipped guitar I couldnt believe the difference in sustain and tone I got compared to my 2 Floyd Rose type guitars. As a 20 year old I was exposed to the onslaught of 80's music, had to have a tremolo guitar with lots of pick-ups, hence the Spektrum FX being my first good electric. I can hear the difference especially unplugged, I find the G string is the most vulnerable to sustain and tone loss. What is ironic is what I considered old geezer guitars (Gibsons) at the time turned out to give me some of the most heaviest sounds I have ever produced. I had never realized the "Heavy Metal" guitars of the 80's had compromises. Well being surrounded locally by a sea of Epiphones and Squires (they do show up on my bench constantly) I guess I am somewhat of a "Snob", although I would prefer the term "Purist".


VP

PS: Like Nigel I can go have a sandwich while my Les Paul is singing out a note.

Westbone wrote:Interesting...........

Ice, you stripped it all down and didn't even try it with strings????

Just wondering if the springs will hook in but it's a good bit shorter and the intonation?

The trem comes with all of it's own parts complete including posts, inserts, claw, body screws, 4 springs, above the nut lock with clamps, whammy, etc. If you do not think the existing claw will reach properly you can remove it and install the one the trem came with.

With the trem mocked into place on the existing posts the positions of the saddles looked nearly the same distance as the existing FT. There is at least 3/8th (closer to .425) of an inch of travel in the saddles so to my eyes there would be little problem in getting proper intonation using it.

Unfortunately it will not work with the MIK Spectrum I that it was intended for as the post spacing on that guitar is short by around 2mm. Even given that I am not too disappointed as it only ran $77 all in and it will work for a different project I have in the works down the road.

Bye the time you insert the fatter posts of the speedloader, you'll make up a mm either side and should then fit on your MIK Speccy.