Rabin Spectrum 12 string replica

Too long on this one, so it's my focus now.  Happy ya like the bright white - the yellowing of the laquer may have made it seem vintage, but I want it to look new and bright.

I know, I know I keep saying I'm getting back to this one, but I do keep getting side tracked on building guitars from scratch.
 
Check out this really cool wood on one I'm working on currently:
 
 

 
 
But I am done with the clear coat on the 12 string, and tomorrow I SWEAR I will be wet sanding it - and that means - I am almost ready to put it together

I just re-read the entire thread, Pat.... absolutely fascinating but.... it was started in June 2012, which makes you the winner of the longest project prize!! Beats my Urchin into a cocked hat by an order of magnitude!  

Jeez, that's a beautiful grain on that one Pat!

Thanks eh.


Wetsanded the 12 and still needs the final buffing.  The question is what pickups should I order for this one.  I'm pretty sure the standard MMK's were not used in Rabin's so I'm up to choose whatever I want.  I'm thinking PUPS that aren't very hot.

sarcaster wrote:...I'm pretty sure the standard MMK's were not used in Rabin's...I'm thinking PUPS that aren't very hot.

I would tend to agree. I don't think you want aggressive output on a 12 string.
A classic PAF spec might work. Something sweet and clear methinks.

Sweet, yes.  Alnico II is my vote!

Stacked HB for the middle?  I will wire it all up so I can coil Split the PUPS.

Dimarzio hs2 is a delightful stacked pup, great for bridge or middle.

The two Matt 12s of Don's I played with some time ago had MMKs; the 696-12 had 45s and the VA912 had 53s, and they sounded sublime!!

Yeah... world's your oyster in the p'up department, I reckon! That said, I have no clue what to recommend as I don't know enough about 12 string electrics!!

I've got a pair of APII pickups with chrome covers here if you want to try them??

corsair wrote:The two Matt 12s of Don's I played with some time ago had MMKs; the 696-12 had 45s and the VA912 had 53s, and they sounded sublime!!

Yeah... world's your oyster in the p'up department, I reckon! That said, I have no clue what to recommend as I don't know enough about 12 string electrics!!

I've got a pair of APII pickups with chrome covers here if you want to try them??

Thanks eh - I'll keep that in mind.  I'm off to camp on an island for a few days, so no decisions till I get back - hopefully get me some good fishing in.

sarcaster wrote: camp on an island for a few days

   Ooh err Missus!   


Don't start sanding those trees....  

So I finished that blue guitar:

 




And then focused on the Rabin 12.  I finished spraying this one and started to put it together.  Hard to believe it is almost 2 years ago I started on this guitar.  And if you remember, I built this 12 string neck from scratch.  It gave me the "itch" to build my own guitars from "scratch".  I used the original Electra/Westone neck for measurements to make this neck fit, and was VERY proud that it worked out well.  2 way truss rod, 2 graphite rods and a 3 piece maple neck - cool?  yes, it looks bad ass....




BUT.......there is one thing I didn't think of.  So the neck I copied was used on a guitar with a bendmaster, and the neck I made is to be used with a LP - stop tail - type bridge.  What's the difference when you make the neck?????  Neck Angle.  How I did not think of this 2 years ago?  I did the same thing with that Pantera 12 string but it didn't seem to be so obvious......now I understand.  But how did I not notice until now- uh......uh.....I guess I just didn't put thought into it.  The Pantera has a curved body which lowers the saddles and I 'unintentionally' recessed the saddle mounts a bit, so I never really thought of it.  Lesson learned.  But these are the lessons that make us better at what we do. 

To show the dilemma:

So here you see I put a temp nut in the neck (still have to carve and slot one for 12 strings) just to check how the string(s) would lie across the nut to the saddle.  See the problem???




When looking closer at the first few frets, notice the height of the straight edge....






And then notice how high when looking at the high frets:



Huge difference.  Now if you have a TOM type or stop tail type bridge guitar, you will notice that the neck is angled, not parallel to the body.  But most simple trem guitars have a neck parallel to the body.  I didn't think of that then, but need to correct it now.  So I could either recess the bridge, make a new neck, or shim it.  

Not gonna recess it, not gonna make a new neck, and not just gonna make the typical shim.  I'll make a wedge type shim that will fit the neck pocket so all of the neck and body have wood in between them rather than just a shim that lifts the end of the neck.  So more like adding a wood to the neck pocket to correct the angle, rather than a shim. 


Hope it doesn't make this drag out too much longer, but I also have a strat build going, and 2 Nylon string electrics that I just started.   Building these things is addicting eh.

Nothing wrong with using a shim.
I shim the majority of bolt on necks.
Parallel neck to body is not good.


Alternatively use a micro tilt system

Hmmmm. I wonder how Pat is getting on with this? 

Yeah, I ain't getting any younger.
And I keep dozing off....wake me if you hear 12 strings chiming...

I've been excited to see this done for years!    Alas, I certainly understand how projects can linger.  I have a few myself...

Ok - sorry guys, this project has taken the back burner for me over the last few years (really that long?).   I am so different now than when I joined this forum.  I used to want to collect guitars, and now I just build guitars.   And I think I do it fairly well at this point.  The neck I built for the Rabin 12 was my first neck, and I did not compensate for the angle change from the trem bridge to stoptail type.   I think someone mentioned shimming it as a solution, but as a fairly competent builder now I would say shims are for sucks,.  Yes I know Westone used shims/fender used shims blah blah, but it is a lame fix for a design problem.  So my plan is to build a new neck from scratch, and wrap this bird up, but only after finishing more important builds.  I refuse to build crap at this point, so this guitar will be every bit as good as the original (minus the PUPS - I can't copy them as I have means to copy them).   I don't plan on getting to this soon, but I really want to.  Once done, if someone wants one too, I would be more than willing to make one for others - at a cost of course

Yay, Pat... nice to see you still about, mate!! Fully understand your decisions, just would like to see this one done!

And as much as I'd like a Spectrum 12, I now have a Matt 12, so I'm good, mate!!

That's right, rub it in.

Shims...yes very handy indeed!
Gibson and many other set neck guitar makers use shims and have done for many years. Suppose they suck also!

Try telling a customer who brings a guitar in for a set up that they need a new neck when a shim will do the trick....

"Try telling a customer who brings a guitar in for a set up that they need a new neck when a shim will do the trick...."

I would never....the damage has been done sir....they bought a sub par guitar and I would absolutely offer a shim first to correct their poorly built guitar



Shims are for sucks - I stand by that.  A correctly built neck and body do not need shims.   A shim is a small piece of wood to correct an imperfection, whether it be a neck, a door, or any woodworking mistake that does not meet measurement correctly.   No matter who builds it, how namely the name, a need for the shim is an excuse for a flaw in measurement.  

That being said, mistakes are made - even Fender/Gibson/blah blah make mistakes...and the shim makes up for it.  Good for them for not being perfect but charging for it-  FULL PRICE.  Idiots accept that as the norm.

Learning to be a luthier...on the other hand....one of the crucial points is a tight neck to body "seal".   I agree with that theory (so  the need for the shim lessens the contact point between neck and body hence lessening sustain/blah/tone/blah)

So Westbone...as far as I know you are a collector of few good instruments and many average/cheap ones and show a ton of arrogance on this site, you have no idea on what it take to build a great instrument, or what it takes to make a great instrument. 

You arrogance has been an annoyance to this site.  You Ignorance has been entertainment.

An example....Right above "Gibson and many other set neck guitar makers use shims and have done for many years. Suppose they suck also!"

Um yes, they suck...Why else would they use them?   They designed it to be perfect and the ones that weren't had to be Corrected......by.....shims.

Good guitars don't have them.  Don't need them.

OK...  before this gets out of hand, let's just take a step back and remember this is a small bunch of people talking about guitars that went out of production many years ago; we don't need the aggro!!

All are entitled to an opinion, and are also entitled to express such opinions, but bear in mind not everyone is going to agree with that opinion and show a little tolerance, please. 

Happy New Year, guys!

Amen. Life's too damn short!

We're off shortly to dinner overlooking Niagara Falls, with fireworks.
Happy New Year to all!

Thread of the year! 

Happy new year!

Yeah

Happy New Year and may all of your dreams, wishes and proposed guitar acquisitions come true.

Especially for John (I'm all done).... oops I just bought a Matts 12 string.

Hoax 

Truth is the great leveller eh. 
Happy new year Graham!

Same to you El Pedro

When opinion becomes fact it can serve to bite you on your arse!!

Graham

I apologize for my rant, but mean what I say.  It's not opinion when it comes to shims - it's fact.  And I may have bee harsh on Mr westbone - so I apologize there as well.  I will make a new neck for this 12 string to make it properly.  Maybe not soon, but when it is done I will post the results. 

I'll be done here after.

Don't diss the humble shim it's a necessary tool in the guitar trade!

So you have a guitar that doesn't need one. The guitar sets up and plays well, fantastic!
Then you have a guitar that needs a shim. The guitar sets up plays well, fantastic. Providing the shim is installed correctly never a problem.

Just for the record I've been a guitar tech for over 30 odd years and the guitars you see on here that I own are just a smidgin of my collection. As for your comment on average/cheap guitars I'm not a headstock snob and know a decent guitar when I play/see one.
Telecters are not exactly rocket science but they look fine and I agree if you don't need a shim very good. Guitars are not rocket science! 

Happy New Year.

FFS, take a step back, eh?! Yes, Pat arced up a bit, but there was provocation and he had the grace to publicy apologise.

As I read the postings, you were at cross purposes anyway; you were banging on about shims on mass produced guitars and he was talking about bespoke instruments and his desire to make his as perfect as he could; no dramas there, as far as I could see.

I've edited the personal comments out but left the tenor of the post as it is; let's agree to disagree and move on, please!

No parity here then eh!

sarcaster wrote:Good guitars don't have them.  Don't need them.

That's drawing a pretty long bow, man; you're saying that my guitar that put food on table for many years is not a good guitar because it has a neck shim?! Hmmmmm.....

Like I said in reply to Damian, I reckon you blokes are at cross purposes.... he's talking about mass produced, and you're talking about custom builds; worlds, nay universes, apart in terms of initial purchase price!

The fact that Gibson can charge whatever they like is more about player conservatism rather than anything else!!