Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Iceman wrote:Deja vu yet, Damian??

Deja vu, indeedy.

Westbone wrote:

Iceman wrote:Deja vu yet, Damian??

Deja vu, indeedy.

Spooky...

Now this is getting enigmatic

It's not that difficult beavis, you can do it. Nothing mysterious about it.

Westbone wrote:It's not that difficult beavis, you can do it. Nothing mysterious about it.

It's going along nicely, not quite finished yet. Will get it over with this evening hopefully. And no, I don't find it too difficult, very entertaining actually

When I said things were getting enigmatic, I was refering to your "déjà vu" exchange with Iceman. I might understand it one day!

Have a gander at this all will become crystal clear
http://forum.westoneguitars.net/t2162-and-the-genesis-i-that-became-a-project-as-well

Westbone wrote:Have a gander at this all will become crystal clear
http://forum.westoneguitars.net/t2162-and-the-genesis-i-that-became-a-project-as-well

Oooh! I get it now! Thanks for the link.

Half expected this when Westbone told me this was an easy task, but the pot is changed without solving the problem.... I just don't have a clue what the problem (nor the solution, consequently) is. I followed the diagram, checked the connections on both ends of the wires, tested the resistance of all the pickups, pffff.

Anybody want a dimension IV for 20$? (just kidding!).

No ideas anybody...?



C'mon, surely somebody can help or am I left to endure this most dramatical situation alone ??

have you checked each of the switches to be sure they all function properly (just the switches themselves, not the wiring)?

sometimes the P/P switch contacts become defective, for one reason or another.

gittarasaurus wrote:have you checked each of the switches to be sure they all function properly (just the switches themselves, not the wiring)?

sometimes the P/P switch contacts become defective, for one reason or another.

The switches appear to function correctly: they do what they are supposed to do. But this makes me think that the only odd thing with the wiring is that the original colour scheme is not respected as I have an orange wire instead of a yellowone going from the bridge tone switch to the volume switch and a green instead of an orange going from the bridge tone pot to the 3-way switch. Not saying that the colour is going to make a difference, but maybe these wires aren't original and have been badly soldered or that the pot/switch connection is dead somehow. Does that make sense?

I rechecked with the multimeter. bridge PU checks in at 11.4 and neck at 10.97. When I coil split, it halves those numbers. When I activate the middle PU, it reads 2.4 about (which seems low, but sounds right). My deduction is that the bridge PU works, but I don't understand why the sound is weak if the multimeter reads 11.4. If it reads this, shouldn't it sound full throttle too?

Well, I am rambling on, boring old me.

Thanks again to all of you for your precious help and advice!!

When you test your pups for readings make sure the selector switch is switched to that pup only.
Switching from series(knob down) to parallel(knob up) it will sound a bit thinner.
How far away are your pickups from the strings? Adjust until about an 1/8" away and see how it is.

if you want to find out if the pickup sounds ok, then you could simply take the wires from the pickup and attach them to the jack (or a temporary jack if you have an extra), and plug it in to an amp and listen.

can you hear full fidelity sound from pickup straight to output?

Westbone wrote:How far away are your pickups from the strings? Adjust until about an 1/8" away and see how it is.

That outside-of-the-box reasoning works really well with me, since it turns out the pickup was low and I had not thought of that (what an idiot). Raised it a good deal and it makes a noticeable difference (whilst reducing the sustain I think).

"Intellectually" there must some way of figuring out why the sound isn't right: if the reading on the multimeter indicates that the pickup is delivering its full potential (the right resistance or whatever), it must mean that the wiring is right, at least regarding the output. I forgot to specify that the method I used to measure the ohms was Barry's trick of measuring using a cable from the jack, and not directly from the pickup wires. Since raising the height made a difference, then it is possible there is something wrong with the poles or something I guess.

I played it a good deal last night and have the feeling there might be a bad connection with the tone 1 pot or switch, might try checking that out again and will probably try plugging it directly into a spare output jack. This should definitely allow to establish whether it's the pickup itself or the wiring which is the cause.

Well I'll be dipped in dog dirt, is that all it was..

Westbone wrote:Well I'll be dipped in dog dirt, is that all it was..

Rest assured Westbone. But I do expect the solution to be something pretty stupid. Hope to solve this this w.-e.

Your better off testing your pickups from the wires in the control area.
Like I mentioned make sure the selector switch is only on the pickup your testing.
the middle single should read more than 2. something.
Have you tapped, with a screwdriver, the individual coils of the pups. That's on the pole pieces when connected.
You'll hear the difference when using the coil tap switch. If you get my drift.
These things are difficult without being hands on so to speak.

Alright. I'll give it a try. The single was actually not measured. I measured the middle position on the 3-way, with the single activated.
I understand your explanations fine. Just hope I won't have to unsolder/resolder stuff as the original work is way better than what I can hope to achieve.

You won't have to unsolder anything to test the pups. Just trace the wires to their connections.

Hm, this thread is starting to have more twists and turns than a Dicken's novel, or an episode of Dallas, or a nadal-jokovic final, whatever.

Here are a few pics.





Now that the pickup is a little louder, it is easier to hear the problems. There is indeed something wrong with tone 1, which is not wired correctly and might be the cause of all this. You will also notice the colours don't match on the 3-way switch. I have noticed this: if I split the coils and activate the middle pickup, the hum is cancelled with the neck PU but actually increases with the bridge PU and the sound gets very week.

Here are the ohm measurements:
Single: 5.7k

Bridge, white + green: 4.35
red+green: 5.8
red+white: 5.8
white+green: dunno, forgot and put my stuff away for the night

Neck red+white (didn't find any other wires coming out of it): 5.7

Looks from the wires and schematic that the 3-way wires on tone 2 and tone 1 should be swapped around. But I don't see what this is going to change.

Oh and I have not found time to solder the bridge PU to a jack yet... I've been quite the busy bee lately hehehe bzzzzz

your neck pickup uses the cable shield as one end of the pickup windings and is connected inside the pickup body. the red is the center tap of the 2 coils and the white is the humbucker connection.
for neck pickup:
white -> ground shield = humbucker,
white -> red = single coil

check >white to ground< to get neck reading (be sure coil tap p/p is not engaged).

looking at your pics and the drawing, it looks like all is in place correctly. (i am assuming there is a capacitor on the side of the tone pot that is hidden from view in the pic)

you wrote " I have noticed this: if I split the coils and activate the middle pickup, the hum is cancelled with the neck PU but actually increases with the bridge PU and the sound gets very week. "

the problem sounds like maybe the pickups are not phased correctly when in single coil mode, so the coil split is not in phase cancel mode.

have you tried the phase reverse p/p (on tone 2) to eliminate the hum? (it should be noise canceling when pushed in).
if that is the problem, then you will need to reverse the connections on the green and white wires from the bridge pickup, where they connect on the phase reverse push pull switch on the back of tone 2.

you might also check to make sure that the body of the bridge pickup is connected to the ground shield, if it has a metal baseplate.

Thanks ever so much Gittarasaurus!

I will measure the resistance again. I will have to verify this but, if I recall correctly, when all the pots are out (pulled) with bridge and simple activated I think the hum is not cancelled but there is more output. Will double check this though.

Another thing, when I check the wiring diagram on the site, there is a blue wire going from the left middle node (surely there is a more exact term for this) to the 3-way switch which is completely absent in my case. It also looks like the wiring was redone at some point on my guitar as there are differences in the appearance of the solder joints.

i have checked 3 electra X189's and i find them all wired the same, (just as the Dynasty schematic shows).
i have one that is an in-between version of the 'electra-westone' and the spectrum. it has only 'westone' and the bird 'W' on the headstock, (#4091867).


this one is wired with the bridge and neck out of phase when the p/p is pushed in. (this makes the bridge and middle out of phase also). move the 3-way switch to bridge only, then pull up to engage the middle pickup and you get the very diminished sound, and when cut to single coil at the bridge, this produces the 'smallest' sound you can get from the pickups. pull up on the phase reverse and you get the normal quacky single coil sound from the middle and bridge. push in to get humbucker and you get fuller sound. move 3-way switch to center position, to turn on neck humbucker, and this is the 'biggest' sound you get from the pickups.

this guitar seems to get to a 'smaller' sound than the others, even when the pickup settings are the same, although the p/p switch settings are slightly different to get there. i have not pulled out the pickups to check to see they are all the same, but they appear to be from the top side (they all have hex screws for pole pieces).

so i guess more questions :
are your humbuckers connected out-of-phase when your T2 pot is pushed in?
is the bridge out-of-phase with the middle pickup when T2 is pushed in?

Hello Gittarasaurus. Thanks a lot for your involvement and help, it's really great!

I will check this phase business this evening. I am very unfamiliar with phase/out of phase sounds and might have trouble recognizing which is which. Either way, there is no big difference in sound when I pull T2 out (as long as the other switches remain untouched); the output is definitely comparable to my ear. My impression is that the sound is brighter with T2 pulled and fuller with T2 pushed in (more treble / less treble maybe). I will check this this evening.

I am slowly realizing my procedure through all this was all wrong. Next time I will start by checking the pickup height, the output, then the entire wiring diagram. I based the whole thing on the seemingly wrong assumption that if the bridge pickup didn't work properly, the simplest explanation was that tone pot 2 was faulty.

Anyway. I have noticed that the blue wire that goes from middle of 3way to Tone 1 actually ends up on the volume pot. I will post a picture of this. Turns out the wiring is not correct.

Will keep you posted. Thanks again!

Here is the modified version of a diagram I am getting to know quite well heehee

In pink, the way things are, and in blue (original), the way the ought to be.



Don't know if changing this back to normal would do any difference as it looks like the other blue wire brings in back home anyway.

your "pink" wire goes to the center point of the 3-way switch. that "pink" wire collects the neck and bridge signals and puts them to the output volume pot. meanwhile the blue wire comes from the p/p switch that turns on/off the middle pickup and connects it directly to the volume pot. there is no tone control on the middle pickup so it goes > pickup->on/off switch (T1 p/p)->output volume pot <

the drawing in blue is showing that these points are connected together , just in a different order. there is no difference to the circuit electrically.

the lugs on the volume pot are more durable and easier to solder 2 wires onto than the smaller points on the p/p switch, so the connection was probably done that way to make it easier and less problematic.

Big enough thread for a "small issue"...

My head hurts.

Iceman wrote:Big enough thread for a "small issue"...
My head hurts.

True dat. Please pass the aspirin.
And I don't mean the low dose!

Harden up, you whiny things!!

Iceman wrote:Big enough thread for a "small issue"...

My head hurts.

Small problems tend to require complicated solutions, as the saying goes... (well I doubt it goes like that actually, but let us say it does).

Gittarasaurus, those explanations are very clear and sure make sense to me. My next step will be to give as precise a description as possible of this phase/out of phase stuff you were talking about. I will maybe do this this evening or otherwise this w.-e. (should have done it yesterday but had a long day and preferred to relax a little bit instead).

The aspirin's on me

corsair wrote:Harden up, you whiny things!!

Aye, Aye Cap'n ! Wot say 'ee, Barry? Stiff upper lip now... there's a good chap!




Freud would have a field day with your remonstration BTW, John.

corsair wrote:Harden up, you whiny things!!

That's what she said!

Barry wrote:

corsair wrote:Harden up, you whiny things!!

That's what she said!

We need a face palm icon. Just for Barry.

Well well, boys, enough talking about erectile disorder, let us move back to the very arousing subject-matter of this thread!

Check a few combinations and have reached the conclusion that my guitar actually doesn't play in or out of phase. With the neck pickup, there is no difference whether I pull Tone 2 or not.

The bridge is more complicated and here are a few combos:
- T 1 and T 2 pulled out: quite warm sound, good "output" (power, or whatever you wish to call it), medium feedback;
- T1 out and T 2 in: not good. Trebly and funky as if low distortion (which is not the case, I was playing with medium to high disto);
- Volume, T1 and T 2 pulled (all-out): warm, distinct single coil tone.
- Volume and T1 out, Tone 2 in: feedback, trebly and low output. Not ok. This position played through the neck pickup sounds good.

There. Hope this helps to give and idea. Apart from that, I resoldered the ground wires on Tone 2 and the bridge with all switches pushed in, sounds good. Impressive response with the harmonics and very quiet.

beavis wrote:
Check a few combinations and have reached the conclusion that my guitar actually doesn't play in or out of phase. With the neck pickup, there is no difference whether I pull Tone 2 or not.

that is correct, the phase reverse p/p on T2 is connected to the bridge pickup. you will only hear a change when the bridge pickup is "on" with another pickup also "on".

beavis wrote:The bridge is more complicated and here are a few combos:
- T 1 and T 2 pulled out: quite warm sound, good "output" (power, or whatever you wish to call it), medium feedback;

(3-way switch to bridge only) middle pickup on and bridge pickup on and in 'normal' phase (humbucker or single coil)

beavis wrote:- T1 out and T 2 in: not good. Trebly and funky as if low distortion (which is not the case, I was playing with medium to high disto);

(3-way switch to bridge only) middle pickup on and bridge pickup on, in 'reverse' phase. middle pickup is a reverse wound/ reverse polarity pickup and any pickup connected in 'reverse phase' with it will sound very diminished

beavis wrote:- Volume, T1 and T 2 pulled (all-out): warm, distinct single coil tone.

(3-way switch to bridge only) middle on, bridge is single coil and in 'normal' phase connection

beavis wrote:- Volume and T1 out, Tone 2 in: feedback, trebly and low output. Not ok. This position played through the neck pickup sounds good.

(3-way switch to bridge only) middle on, single coil bridge in 'reverse' phase connection. the very 'small' sound

beavis wrote:There. Hope this helps to give and idea. Apart from that, I resoldered the ground wires on Tone 2 and the bridge with all switches pushed in, sounds good. Impressive response with the harmonics and very quiet.

one more combination to try: with T1 in (middle off), 3way switch to middle (neck and bridge on), then operate T2 push/pull. you should be able to hear a change. from your descriptions so far, you should have greater output when T2 is pulled out.

and with that, it sounds to me like you have achieved push/pull nirvana!

another question, are both of your tone pots working correctly now?

and the big question, have you solved the 'small' issue that began this thread?

All right.. Sounds like I have been a very silly boy with the combos then. When reading your previous post describing the various sounds I hadn't thought that "small" would be THAT small. I will shamelessly blame this on my entire lack of experience with phase reversing.

I will try the last combination this evening. Is it normal that I should have greater output with T2 out in this last position your are asking me to try (wow this formulation makes the whole thing sound odd..) or should I reverse something on the T2?

gittarasaurus wrote:
and the big question, have you solved the 'small' issue that began this thread?

Now, regarding the subject-matter of this topic, I thought I had mentioned this, but after rereading my posts, it appears not to be the case. When fiddling around with the guitar last w.-e., I noticed that the ground connection I had soldered on the side of the pot (with the capacitor) was loose. Soldered that back right and the bridge pickup (3way to bridge only, all switches down) works fine!! So my guess is that something similar was wrong on the original pot too, i.e. loose solder. But, it might also have been the original pot was dead and I just hadn't done a good soldering job with the new one (was nearly my first go at soldering).

Apart from that, all the pots seem to work just fine.

Thanks again Gittarasaurus, I really owe you one (and to all the patient others around here )

Tried the last combination: T1 in, T2 toggled in and out, 3way on middle position.

--> Hard to say if there is a change in output but the sound with Tone 2 out is slightly warmer, less treble or more bass maybe. There clearly is a difference in tone when I toggle the switch.

That sounds suspiciously like a coda to my ears....

JOHN!!! Lock it down before a descant refrain can build momentum.

No crescendo needed here boys.... I'm good.

Ah but now I have suddenly noticed that when switching from bridge to neck with the two tone pots pulled outthere is an odd change in output that seems to be.....

Okay, enough of this! Heehee, all's well that ends well I suppose!